Ext control via MIDI in to Fantom..disappointing

IkerG wrote:

Hi all, maybe I'm doing something wrong or there is some mystery parameter hidden within the thousands available that I haven't been able to find. Here is what I'm trying to do:
I'm connecting a Roland A-33 via MIDI in to my newly acquired Fantom 07 (my current gig rig is a Roland A-33, a Hammond XK-1(organ sound going to an original Ventilator) both connected via MIDI to USB to a MacBook Pro running MainStage with a multitude of plugs, Ivory, all Spectrasonics, Nexus, Serum, all Arturia, etc. A dumb Korg Krome with barely acceptable sounds as backup in case computer goes down while rebooting/figure problem ), I'm trying to reduce the complexity (and weight) of my setup... thought I could use the Fantom as my central hub for sound generation and could have complete functionality over keyboard splits either from MIDI and/or the Fantom keyboard itself, so far, from Fantom keybed, all working perfectly, but then MIDI comes along... when you assign a MIDI channel to a zone, it will play, yes the tone on the zone, but completely ignores all parameters associated with the zone, meaning, transpose, Octave, and Keyboard Range!!!! Am I missing something here? Is the Fantom not able to have this functionality via MIDI as it has it on it's own keybed? really? I can't believe this is the case, is either, very narrow minded coding that the programmers didn't think about mirroring the parameters on the zone and map the data coming in through MIDI accordingly or I'm grossly missing something here... Beats the purpose of my purchase, yes, my fault, not looking in depth at this before buying, but, reality is, that for my approach (even though is nothing out of this world) I couldn't find the needed info, or sales person couldn't give me reasonable advice (can't expect them to know EVERYTHING about a product)... Will this thing become my backup keyboard? sheesh. And yes, I do need 2 keyboards with split zones all over them for nearly 40% of the repertoire, lets not go there :-)

😃😃😃😃

The trick, deceiving even the experts into thinking there is a feature available that in fact is not there, let's say just half and half as we will see below, is that when you scroll the zone settings and you get to the green EXT tab you see KEYBOARD RANGE and it goes without saying that EXT KEYBOARD RANGE means EXT KEYBOARD RANGE, what else ?

Therefore, I couldn't believe my EXT device was not restricting its voicing while my Fantom was set to BOTH for the many EXT KEYBOARD RANGES I had been setting for hours: nothing less than 16 EXT ZONES were involved.

After contacting Roland Support, this was their answer:

Hi again,

I agree with you that it would make sense to have a separate key range setting for the EXT part.
That said, I personally always use a separate Zone for the External control to be able to do this and to also have direct control over things like Volume.

Could that be a workaround also for you?

Best



If we are to be nice with Roland, we could understand that BOTH, under ADVANCED Zone Int/Ext control, was added as a feature in a later released Version 2.00 and they might have forgotten to address such an issue, still limiting the range when the zone is just EXT, not BOTH. So the range selected affects the EXT device if and only when the zone is EXT and just EXT, not BOTH.
Yes, BOTH is BOTH and EXT is EXT, but BOTH means INT+EXT, and everybody (99%?) will still think that green tab there will still affect the EXT part found in BOTH. No reason to be left behind. You set the INT part and you set the EXT part, or so we were wrongly thinking !!!!

I am waiting for a next update to see if they kindly fix this.
Sure they will. A new YELLOW TAB named BOTH with the appropriate settings ?

But be aware all this goes for my Fantom 8, I cannot understand why it could be working so in the new released 0, unless there are no plans to fix it.


🎹🎹🎹🎹

IkerG wrote:

thought I could use the Fantom as my central hub for sound generation and could have complete functionality over keyboard splits either from MIDI and/or the Fantom keyboard itself, so far, from Fantom keybed, all working perfectly, but then MIDI comes along... when you assign a MIDI channel to a zone, it will play, yes the tone on the zone, but completely ignores all parameters associated with the zone, meaning, transpose, Octave, and Keyboard Range!!!! Am I missing something here? Is the Fantom not able to have this functionality via MIDI as it has it on it's own keybed? really? I can't believe this is the case

That is the case. Also see the post at http://forums.rolandclan.com/viewtopic.php?p=338862#p338862

FGM wrote:

The trick, deceiving even the experts into thinking there is a feature available that in fact is not there, let's say just half and half as we will see below, is that when you scroll the zone settings and you get to the green EXT tab you see KEYBOARD RANGE and it goes without saying that EXT KEYBOARD RANGE means EXT KEYBOARD RANGE, what else ?

EXT KEYBOARD RANGE refers to the range in use for CONTROLLING an external device (that is, when sending MIDI). What you are asking about is the opposite, a range to use when being CONTROLLED BY an external device (that is, when receiving MIDI). These are two, entirely different functions. This is not Roland-specific, it is common to many boards, that MIDI IN and MIDI OUT have different key range settings.

Thanks anotherscott for the reference, I was a bit confused by FGM response, pretty sure he was referring to the opposite :-)

Just came across another similar post, and there is a parameter I haven't tried yet that seems to be the fix

menu>system>midi>remote keyboard switch>on

crossing fingers :-)

Nope...just mirrors the fantom keyboard...Ok, it's good but..

Is like the little kid striking out in T-Ball game and all the parents cheering. "Good try!!!" "Good try!!!" :-)

Expecting this unit (having a MIDI in) to behave like a sound generating module, I think is not that far fetched. The fact that they can mirror the built in keyboard with an external keybed via MIDI in, just reinforces the idea that having complete functionality negated is a design decision (pretty bad in my opinion) very shortsighted and a failed opportunity to promote this machines as a 1 stop sound generation engine for the working musician.

I have a workaround strategy, but will make me work 3 times more than needed, which is assign all tones needed and sort throughout the cacophony of sound programming key ranges, transposes, octave on the tones themselves (at least there are plenty and plenty of slots to save). Haven;'t figured out how to go about the SuperNatural tones yet, but necessity is the mother of all contraptions :-)

Can't still get over the shortsightedness of this implementation, the company having more than 30 years experience on this kind of functionality on their rack modules (my 1992 JV-880 can do it, so does my 1080, heck, I'm sure the U-110/220 could), algorithms are there, know how is there, software module libraries are there...Lazines or lack of imagination?

anotherscott2022 wrote:

[

FGM wrote:

The trick, deceiving even the experts into thinking there is a feature available that in fact is not there, let's say just half and half as we will see below, is that when you scroll the zone settings and you get to the green EXT tab you see KEYBOARD RANGE and it goes without saying that EXT KEYBOARD RANGE means EXT KEYBOARD RANGE, what else ?

EXT KEYBOARD RANGE refers to the range in use for CONTROLLING an external device (that is, when sending MIDI). What you are asking about is the opposite, a range to use when being CONTROLLED BY an external device (that is, when receiving MIDI). These are two, entirely different functions. This is not Roland-specific, it is common to many boards, that MIDI IN and MIDI OUT have different key range settings.

😃😃😃😃


I was talking, anotherscott2022, about playing Fantom assuming the selected keyboard range under the EXT tab of the zone that will affect an external device once it is under control via a zone set to BOTH will work. Not the other way around as you say. Not using a remote keyboard to play Fantom. No. You missunderstood me because I use Fantom to play my Yamaha keyboard, and since I talked about an external keyboard you went thinking it was used to control the Fantom, but it is not so.

Are you aware the EXT device will have the very same range than the INT in Fantom sound generator if the zone is set to BOTH ?

That is the issue arising after a feature in version 2.00 was implemented. Advanced was added to Basic and then the EXT tab will be void if EXT is not used alone but as a part under BOTH, that is INT+EXT.
EXT keyboard range only works under EXT and not under BOTH.
So if the external keyboard/sound box/etc is meant to play a soprano and you want to restrict its voice to C4-C6, you are to set it under the same range used for INT if using BOTH or refrain from using BOTH, which means losing INT, and going just EXT, turning 32 potential zones (16 INT and 16 EXT) into just 31 (15 INT and 16 EXT). Each EXT zone not matching the range used for INT will make you lose another INT zone...and so one...
The orchestration initially planned goes disappearing like smoke...

That all being as is turns the very reason after my letter complaining about what have been exposed for Roland Support saying that ..

I agree with you that it would make sense to have a separate key range setting for the EXT part.
That said, I personally always use a separate Zone for the External control to be able to do this and to also have direct control over things like Volume.

Read it twice.
Make a cross-stitch with the paragraph and place it next to the one you made with the circle of fifths.
Write it on a chocolate cake.

You see ?
Can you believe it ?
Even the volume is committed to be the same !!!!
??????????

BOTH is simply a bad joke under this working conditions.
Pretty much the same terrible error made when deciding that the pad under Note Pad mode will be just the very same for all scenes.

Unacceptable.

[attachment: R&U.jpg]

🎹🎹🎹🎹

FGM. ????? I humbly believe your exposition has nothing to do with my question(s).

Maybe I wasn't clear enough on what I'm trying to do...

A-33 (keyboard controller) MIDI OUT --------> Fantom MIDI IN

Fantom engine will play the zones with the right Rx channel selected, however, Zones will not follow zone settings (key range, transpose,octave) when playing the A-33

Or just an excuse to discuss some other topic?

FGM wrote:

You see ?
Can you believe it ?
Even the volume is committed to be the same !!!!
??????????

BOTH is simply a bad joke under this working conditions.

Hmmm... You're saying that when a single zone is controlling both an internal and and external sound, the two sounds will share the same volume adjustments... but I think it must work that way. If the Roland is using MIDI to send the volume data to both its internal and external sound, and you have assigned an internal and external sound to the same zone (thereby putting them on the same MIDI channel), it seems to me that the volume commands would have to be the same for the two sounds. I mean, if you have two sounds (one internal, one external) that are both responding to MIDI Channel 5, how would you send one volume command to one and a different one to the other? You can't send different volume commands to different devices unless they are on different channels. A volume command sent on MIDI channel 5 will be seen by any attached device set to receive on MIDI channel 5. But maybe I'm still misunderstanding you.

😃😃😃😃

Call it what you want, but any user, to the best of my understanding, will ask those 32 different zones to behave as each one was set and will be misled by those INT and EXT different settings, still available under BOTH.

Let's start offering 16 zones.

Good.

Going forward, Roland offered a zone to be INT or EXT.

Good over good.

And then it was really great seeing those 16 zones could be turned 32 by using BOTH.

Astounding.... BUT then...

If under BOTH there are still INT tabs settings and EXT tabs settings, it goes without saying that the software should send commands to the INT zone according to the settings made under the INT tabs and it is SUPPOSED it would also send commands to the EXT zone, BUT this time as set along the EXT tabs. We have mentally been driven into thinking so. Why ? Because we went using INT first, then EXT and it goes without saying that when offered BOTH we jumped hilariously thinking each settings under INT and under EXT will be routed accordingly, that is the reason the surprise comes and turn us into sadness when we realize it is not so.

BOTH is supposed to grant the player the ability to use INT and EXT simultaneously as BOTH=INT+EXT, not INT+EXT -EXTsettings, and nobody is going to assume BOTH is the one granting EXT settings will disappear and become supplanted and neglected by INT. Why this should be so ?

Are you playing D2 ?
No>Go to previous question.
Yes> Have a command ready.
Is D2 within the INT keyboard range ?
Yes> send D2 to INT zone.
No> send NIL to INT zone.
Is D2 within the EXT keyboard range ?
Yes>send D2 to EXT zone.
No>send NIL to EXT zone.

If D2 is triggering a signal, the software should route it accordingly to follow the settings.

Is volume at 60 under INT and 75 under EXT and using BOTH ?
What are you doing sending 60 for INT and 60 also for EXT ? I ordered 60 INT and 75 EXT. Do it.

If not, don't say 32 zones, say 16 zones plus 16 mirrored zones or whatever.

Or add another tab called BOTH in yellow that will warn the user any settings made below will be common to INT and EXT, invalidating whatever is set under the INT red tab and under the EXT green tab, that will turned grey to warn you they are not working anymore as soon as you want BOTH.

Simply don't go killing my EXT settings at the flip of a BOTH.

A zone under ZEN-Core can have 4 partials operating.
Same channel you said? Yes, BUT still different loudness, different fine tuning, different and even opposing tuning slopes, different keyboard ranges, different effects (dry, wet), different waves,.mono or stereo, different envelops for pitch and amp, different panning, different time keyfollow...anything can be set accordingly. Then everyone went thinking INT was a "new big partial" and EXT another one, so to speak.The great new feature being called BOTH, but of course, placing INT and EXT together, at your command, and with each obeying their very own different settings.

Anyway I could still use BOTH to give some grounds to other voices, which is great indeed, but it turns a caricature of what we previously thought.

🎹🎹🎹🎹

FGM wrote:

And then it was really great seeing those 16 zones could be turned 32 by using BOTH.

But Roland never said they were expanding Fantom from 16 to 32 zones. There are almost no boards that have an architecture that supports more than 16 MIDI zones. The fact that Roland has an ability to have a single zone trigger both an internal and external sound does not mean they changed the architecture from 16 to 32 zones. 16 zones is 16 zones. 16 zones that can each trigger two destinations is still 16 zones. Why assume otherwise?

FGM wrote:

If not, don't say 32 zones, say 16 zones plus 16 mirrored zones or whatever.

So again, I don't think Roland ever did say 32 zones. The specs say 16 zones. Go to https://www.roland.com/us/products/fantom_series/specs/#fantom-6 and you'll see it listed... "16 Zones (Internal + External)" which looks a lot like what you want them to say. They are not saying 32 zones, they are saying something much closer to your suggestion of "16 zones plus 16 mirrored zones."

FGM wrote:

A zone under ZEN-Core can have 4 partials operating.
Same channel you said? Yes, BUT still different loudness, different fine tuning, different and even opposing tuning slopes, different keyboard ranges, different effects (dry, wet), different waves,.mono or stereo, different envelops for pitch and amp, different panning, different time keyfollow...anything can be set accordingly.

Of course different elements (partials) within a tone can have different settings including volume... but those settings are NOT individually addressable via MIDI CC.

😃😃😃😃

Ver 2.00 says...

ADVANCED.
The following states are now available for
each ZONE INT/EXT button when you push
them: unlit, red (INT), green (EXT), orange
(MUTE), yellow (BOTH).For the yellow (BOTH) state, both the internal sound engine and the external sound module
play.[/i]

Let's say it again...
Both, the internal sound engine (up to 16 zones) and the external sound module (up to 16 zones) are available.
Well, 16+16 is 32. It is true, they don't say 32. They say 16+16.
Then...
Where is said they will not play stereo...?
Or that the voicing will neglect settings done under the EXT tab ?
Or that the volume will be the same ..?
Or that a pedal will affect only internal sounds or external one ?
Or that...STOP. THEY SAID 16+16. THAT IS 32.

Anyway, that is for a new version released in September 2020, and could be considered a present from Roland to early adapters.

What about the new buyers or those who choose Fantom-0 ?

As you have already seen there are complaints about this behaviour.

To me, it is just another little issue, among many, since I am nothing but a simple player having fun, and as much as possible, but for a professional musician I think it is a very serious handicap, amounting to neglect the Fantom the top place among keyboard synthesisers, easily achievable by simpky removing some five? (six?) software glitches.

🎹🎹🎹🎹

FGM wrote:

Well, 16+16 is 32. It is true, they don't say 32. They say 16+16.
...STOP. THEY SAID 16+16. THAT IS 32.

As I pointed you to, what they actually say is: 16 Zones (Internal + External).

They do not say 32 zones.

They do not say 16 internal zones + 16 external zones.

They do not say "32 zones (16 Internal + 16 External)."

They say 16 zones.

That's 16 zones total, Internal + External, combined. No implication of 16 of each.

I understand you wish it did more. I'm certainly not arguing against that. I'm just pointing out that, not only did Roland never say it would do 32 zones, but the spec page specifically say 16 zones. Which, to me, means they specifically said, it is NOT 32 zones.

Specs often indicate maximum capabilities, which may not always be achievable. Specs rarely indicate less than what something is actually capable of. If the board had been capable of 32 zones, which would actually be quite unusual, I don't think they would be cryptically hiding that ability. (I'm not aware of any board from Roland, Yamaha, Korg, or Kurzweil that can do 16 internal zones and 16 additional independent external zones.)

😃😃😃😃

They say for Both, internal and external play.

And that is 2 or 4 or 6 or as many as you want go adding until 16 internal and 16 external are selected by simply selecting 16 in yellow, which means both will play.

So 32 zones are announced as capable and ready to be played should you require to do so by simply selecting BOTH on each zone of the 16 available.

The specifications say 16 zones and it will mean many different things depending upon the type of tone you use. Hard to clarify in a list of specifications that are supposed to grant a quick view of the capabilities you are about to invest on. Then you go diving and understanding the greatness of Fantom (look, 16 zones but providing 64 waves if ZEN-Core in there and then even 128 if stereo) until some things are found to be a bit out of place for a top notch keyboard. And they are such strange little things keeping us in frustration while wondering how they could have been designed so and then still not yet being fixed. But take it at a relax pace. Remember those 32 measures...? Yes, the specifications said 32 measures, pretty clear. And nobody was happy.


🎹🎹🎹🎹

IkerG wrote:

FGM. ????? I humbly believe your exposition has nothing to do with my question(s).

Maybe I wasn't clear enough on what I'm trying to do...

A-33 (keyboard controller) MIDI OUT --------> Fantom MIDI IN

Fantom engine will play the zones with the right Rx channel selected, however, Zones will not follow zone settings (key range, transpose,octave) when playing the A-33

Or just an excuse to discuss some other topic?

🤪🤪🤪🤪

Oh, how sorry I am...

Your message (Ext control via MIDI in (OUT?) to Fantom...) was so long and mention so many devices and software connected here and there I might just went hearing resonances from the title and got lost in the tangle while allowing my mind happily drift away around some kind of galactic omnispheres or just simply smashing myself against another little issue, just the opposite one.

Back on Earth, let me, please, tackle without hesitation a little handle of another topic: I promise I need no excuses to talk about any other topic, on that I give my word.

🎹🎹🎹🎹

IkerG wrote:

when you assign a MIDI channel to a zone, it will play, yes the tone on the zone, but completely ignores all parameters associated with the zone, meaning, transpose, Octave, and Keyboard Range!!!!

I think this statement is not quite correct: Yes, some parameters are ignored, for example, keyboard range and velocity range. However, some parameters are also respected, and AFAIK transpose and octave are two of them.

You already mentioned an alternative solution: Programming the keyboard and velocity ranges into the tones.

There is another alternative, which might not work in your case, however, might work for users with smaller keyboards (e.g. Fantom-6 + 49 key MIDi controller):

Turn remote-keyboard-switch ON, shift the Fantom 2 octaves down, shift the external MIDI controller 2 octaves up, and make corresponding adjustments with the zone transpose/octave parameters. This way, the external MIDI controller still acts like the built-in keyboard, however, they play in distinct key ranges.

This is btw not specific to the Roland Fantom. Some people use this workaround also on the Yamaha Montage, which has similar limitations when it comes to external MIDI controllers.