NEVER AGAIN A JUPITER

These discussions are exactly the same as 9 years ago, on the old Jupiters. To me, the iPad app was not only one of my drivers for buying the Jp 50 but also one of the reasons Roland was encouraging people to buy the JP50 instead of the 80 if you did not have all that cash. Discontinuing the app was the same as if they had turned off the keyboard’s screen. In other words: I bought the keyboard for what it was, and suddenly it was LESS than it was when I bought it. They eliminated an almost indispensable functionality. How could I buy them a keyboard again?
And I don’t agree with that “buy the keyboard for what it is now...” etc. How could I think that the keybooard didn’t have a librarian or another way to organize the (thousands) of sounds that they promoted you could make? Of course I would assume that this comes with the board since the main attractive of it was the multiple sound creation. I realized about this only months after, when I came back to my country and knew there was no way to understand which sounds modifications would alter others that you made using the same ones. A pretty basic function for an USD 2000! keyboard. Surely many of you will say I should have investigated more. And I will reply: “not necessary”. And even if I did, it was a topic that came up only months or years after. The sound interaction structure was simply almost impossible to understand and a librarian was just key and basic for using the supposedly most important feature of the board (sound creation). Important to say that in the meantime I bought three Elektron pieces of gear. They are not only amazing, but also permanently renovated, refreshed and updated. I had problems in two occasions and customer service was just excellent. It could not be another way if you are paying USD 1500 or more. They need to keep you not only engaged, but also provide basic functions and updates. It’s not 1980 anymore. That Jupiter 50 was my last Roland, no doubt about it.

i don't know. i just rewatched the synth legends video and side by side the Ju80 sounded just like the originals! i mean that was the reason i grabbed the synth legends pack. i've been pleased with it.

i do agree with the respectable commentary of tom and kimsnarf! you too summed up things brilliantly!

Mahobe wrote:

... To me, the iPad app was not only one of my drivers for buying the Jp 50 but also one of the reasons Roland was encouraging people to buy the JP50 instead of the 80 if you did not have all that cash. Discontinuing the app was ...

Sorry for "interrupting" the quote ) How much later after the release of JP50 was the app discontinued?

Oleq wrote:

Mahobe wrote:

... To me, the iPad app was not only one of my drivers for buying the Jp 50 but also one of the reasons Roland was encouraging people to buy the JP50 instead of the 80 if you did not have all that cash. Discontinuing the app was ...

Sorry for "interrupting" the quote ) How much later after the release of JP50 was the app discontinued?

It was two years after. JP50 was released in 2011. iPad 64 bits was released in late 2013. And they did not update the app anymore.

Mahobe wrote:

And I don’t agree with that “buy the keyboard for what it is now...” etc. How could I think that the keybooard didn’t have a librarian or another way to organize the (thousands) of sounds that they promoted you could make? Of course I would assume that this comes with the board since the main attractive of it was the multiple sound creation.

Assumption is the father of all disappointments. It makes my adagium stronger.

Your hopes for a librarian is just that....hope and wishful thinking.
I see the same with a lot of other instruments/brands.
People bought the System-8, because it will have a lot of other plugouts (no promise).
People were disappointed with the Nord Modular because it didn't update it with a sampler module (wish/rumor)
People were disappointed when Yamaha didn't bring more PLG boards to the modular synthesis plugin system.

I really don't understand the never ending need and expectations for updates.
As said, I buy an instrument for what it is advertised and any enhancement is a bonus to me.
So the System-8 came with a lot of bonuses to me (as Stormchild pointed out).

Elektron made some great sounding machines, but I never really had that spectacular updates for the Analog Keys and they never produced a flawless working version of Overbridge in the time I had the Analog Keys.
It's not to bash Elektron, as said, they have made some great stuff, but it says more about our personal preferences.

Mahobe wrote:

That Jupiter 50 was my last Roland, no doubt about it.

And still hanging around on a Roland forum. ;-)
I honestly think that elektronauts would be more to your taste.

Mahobe wrote:

Oleq wrote:

... How much later after the release of JP50 was the app discontinued?

It was two years after. JP50 was released in 2011. iPad 64 bits was released in late 2013. And they did not update the app anymore.

It makes you wonder how long the new Fantom USB drivers will be updated...
Although two years don't seem fairly long in this case, why keeping an old iPad solely for JP app was not an option?
Some people keep old computers running Windows XP and Snow Leopard for the sake of compatibility with the gear they prefer to use. An iPad seems so much smaller... That said, I don't justify dropping the support shortly after the product release.

Tom_1970 wrote:

...
I really don't understand the never ending need and expectations for updates.

When a manufacturer says that there will be expansions does one give the exact number?
Not that I recall.
Not only might Roland "design the future", but give some vague hope for the coming expansions.
"Fantom is a developing platform" — stuff like that.
The logic itself tells us that an instrument of that price range will probably remain supported for a fairly long period of time.
And yet this seems to be the most safe strategy:

Tom_1970 wrote:

As said, I buy an instrument for what it is advertised and any enhancement is a bonus to me.

Or the least disappointing.

Never trust the marketing department of any company. And never trust a company’s support for third-party platforms, which the iPad certainly is.

When releasing the app Roland failed to consider its lifecycle. It was a cool integration with the latest technology, but Apple keeps breaking apps each year, so constant maintenance is needed to keep up. Roland is apparently not willing to commit those resources. If you regard the iPad app an essential part of your synth you probably need to dedicate an older iPad exclusively as an external screen to your synth. You can side load the app from someone who has it.

Or you can configure one of the general MIDI UI apps (e.g. TB MIDI Stuff) to work as a JP-50 synth editor on a newer iPad. The editor functionality of the synth is not that complex, and it is documented in Roland’s MIDI implementation manual. It is a matter of mapping up each control to its command.

On the Jupiter-80, understanding and working with the sound structure is quite intuitive and fast. They did a good job designing the interface, especially considering the layer complexity. The touch screen is efficiently organised for this purpose. I assume it is harder to work with the Jupiter-50. The iPad app did not help with organisation there either, as it was just an editor. Clearly the UI was designed for the JP-80 and «ported» to the JP-50 through far less efficient menu diving. Though I have no experience with the JP-50.

Moving sounds to and from the synth, using a USB stick, and organising them there is quite workable. So a full librarian is not needed, in my opinion, for the Jupiter-80 at least. The one missing organisatorial feature is the ability to see which sounds use (or depend on) a given sound. This should definitely have been part of the synth UI, and not necessarily be provided as an additional external librarian (which gets outdated fast, like the iPad app).

However, I made a tool for extracting precisely this information, and Cello uploaded the dependency information to his site. Using this information to free up a lot of sounds (without breaking others) can leave a lot of room for building your own. Then you make sure to have control of your own dependencies. Copy sounds when you modify them to avoid breaking other sounds. This approach is what I and many others followed. It works fine.

kimsnarf wrote:

The Jupiter-80 is not a «limited keyboard» nor a «super rompler». It is a digital synth with a virtual analog synth engine where you can create a limitless amount of your own sounds. It also happens to have a lot of great samples (or models) of acoustic sounds, as well as a selection of PCM oscillators. You can’t add samples to it, but the same can be said for most other synths, unless they are workstations of some kind. The Jupiter-80 is not a workstation. If the Jupiter-80 is «limited» then so is basically all other synths out there.

"Limited" as in you can't expand it beyond what it was shipped with aside from that attempt at a sound pack Roland made before it died.

"Super Rompler" as in you can't sample with it or create sounds out of samples. I addressed that you can make your own sounds with it's internal engines but that's far from being able to create your own sounds from external sources. Regardless of what next gen tech it's using you're still limited to it's factory engines to work from. For a so called "live performance synth" that's extremely limiting.

and yeah other synths are indeed limited that's why people like myself own so many of them for the different sonics they can create but Roland tossed the Jupiter 80 in the same ring to contend with the Kronos and the Montage. It was their Flagship keyboard. You can't not toss in a $4,000 Keyboard and not expect people to compare it to the other Flagships from other companies and switch your marketing strategy up to call it a "live performance synth" when you're trying to compete with Workstations because if they weren't than they were trying to compete with NORD since their business is making live performance synths but we all know they weren't.

Truthfully what I learned over time is that just about everything the Jupiter 80 did the Kronos did better with the added bonus of being able to create your own sounds even from external sampled sources or just buying and loading one of the many aftermarket sound packs available. You have the infamous kronos sequencer and the live setlist features as well as Karma.If they were trying to sell the Supernatural engine it failed in comparison to Kronos 9 engines that you can use to create sounds in the same exact way. The depth that you can get into on the Kronos is mindblowing. I don't see how on earth Roland thought the Jupiter 80 was something they would actually put on market and place above a Keyboard that did everything better. It seemed so half baked for the price they asked.

I can also understand some of you want to call them apples and oranges but they're not. They're apples to apples. Call one a Granny Smith and call the Other a Golden Delicious. Feature for feature the Kronos had the Jupiter 80 beat. Better Live performance tools, better synthesizing capabilities. The two main categories the Jupiter 80 marketed it self as. People looked at the Jupiter 80 and said 4K? No sequencer? No Sampling? Nah I'm good I'll pass. For a so called live performance synth who ever used this thing live? I see Kronos's galore in concerts,shows, and stage performances but I've never seen a Jupiter 80 anywhere. So once again it's like wtf was Roland thinking releasing this thing so incomplete?

They got it right with making the Jupiter it's own thing and the Fantom it's own thing instead of trying to blend both worlds and tossing out the sequencer,sampler and calling it a "live performance synth" as an EXCUSE. The Jupiter 80 was indeed a failure with according to what I'm seeing so far on here it's biggest pro was that it's simple to use... well I guess so when it didn't do much at all.

These are the features of a $4K Keyboard?

• *Powerful integrated SuperNATURAL synthesis engines designed for legendary vintage synth sounds to realistic organic acoustic sounds and more
  
  *Single Tone is equivalent to the performance of powerful single synthesizer—stack four of these to create a mind-blowing “Live Set”
  
  *Tone Blender tweaks multiple parameters of tones in realtime for complex, emotive sonic movement during performance
  
  *Fast, friendly operation with intuitive front panel and color touchscreen optimized for live performance
  76-note semi-weighted synth keyboard, and 256 polyphonic voices (varies according to sound-generator load)
  
  *USB-memory Song Player/Recorder for backing tracks or quick idea capture
  
  *Easy integration with computers via built-in USB-MIDI/Audio interface
  *Three types of low-pass filters; combined with the previous type, a total of four filters are now available (New on Version 2.0)
  *New MFX structures; in addition to the previous parallel connection, a total of five structures (including serial connection) are available (New on Version 2.0)
  *A Registration Play screen for easier access to sounds during live performance (New on Version 2.0)"

The Fantom G did more than this. Roland had created an amazing sounding synth engine and decided to make a keyboard around it and charge people $4K thinking they wouldn't notice how little it was capable of... well it didn't work. May the JP-80 rest in peace and my Roland learn from their lesson. I'm hoping that the new Fantom is everything that the Jupiter 80 should have been and then some but the multi sampling thing... once again why are you shooting yourselves in the foot when your competitors offer multi-sampling?

You can certainly argue that the initial price was too high for a mere «performance synth», albeit a flagship. But Roland never marketed the Jupiter-80 as a workstation, so arresting them on that is unfair and unproductive.

I understand that features are most important to you, but many people prefer ease of use, speed, quality and playability instead. All the complexity crammed into the Kronos is the main reason I would never buy it. I use a laptop for all that. The Jupiter-80 is very well designed for what it is; a synth, an instrument, with fewer but high-quality features.

Tom_1970 wrote:

Mahobe wrote:

And I don’t agree with that “buy the keyboard for what it is now...” etc. How could I think that the keybooard didn’t have a librarian or another way to organize the (thousands) of sounds that they promoted you could make? Of course I would assume that this comes with the board since the main attractive of it was the multiple sound creation.

Assumption is the father of all disappointments. It makes my adagium stronger.

Your hopes for a librarian is just that....hope and wishful thinking.
I see the same with a lot of other instruments/brands.
People bought the System-8, because it will have a lot of other plugouts (no promise).
People were disappointed with the Nord Modular because it didn't update it with a sampler module (wish/rumor)
People were disappointed when Yamaha didn't bring more PLG boards to the modular synthesis plugin system.

I really don't understand the never ending need and expectations for updates.
As said, I buy an instrument for what it is advertised and any enhancement is a bonus to me.
So the System-8 came with a lot of bonuses to me (as Stormchild pointed out).

Elektron made some great sounding machines, but I never really had that spectacular updates for the Analog Keys and they never produced a flawless working version of Overbridge in the time I had the Analog Keys.
It's not to bash Elektron, as said, they have made some great stuff, but it says more about our personal preferences.

Mahobe wrote:

That Jupiter 50 was my last Roland, no doubt about it.

And still hanging around on a Roland forum. ;-)
I honestly think that elektronauts would be more to your taste.

Hey Tom, there is a smell of aggressiveness in your answer. Do you own Roland or something? hahaha
Maybe I did not express myself clearly: I was not assuming that Roland would include a sequencer, or a sampler in the future. I assumed a basic functionality that every single keyboard has: being able to organize sounds under a rationale. And the Jupiters do not do that at all. It is like assuming that you are buying a car with wiper washer. Something basic, out of discussion. Is it clearer now?

And of course I will decide myself which forum is more of my taste. I will be around here as many times as I like, too.

About updates and upgrades
Bonus or not, looks like Yamaha is adding as much as a sequencer to the new synths.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KP2p4awFaXE

So, the touchscreen does mean more flexibility...

Mahobe wrote:

Hey Tom, there is a smell of aggressiveness in your answer.

A tad maybe. ;-)
My apologies.

Mahobe wrote:

Do you own Roland or something?

No.
As said I am not a Roland fanboy.
I judge an instrument by its interface, usability and of course, its sound and I have to admit Roland does a very good jog in making instruments I like.
So there's quite a lot of Roland in my studio, but to be honest, the last synth I bought was Korg Minilogue XD and if the Jupiter-X isn't released before the coming year, my next purchase will be a ASM Hydrasynth (today I expect a Mutable Plaits ;-) ).

To keep in style with your car analogy.
For me it would be like expecting that there will be seat heating, but I don't even have a drivers license, so maybe it's not the best analogy for me. ;-)

For me it's simple.
When it's not there don't assume it will be automatically.
So I wasn't really pissed when Overbridge didn't work the way it should be, because for me it was a bonus instead of something I expected.

And that's the reason I have so many questions about the Jupiter-X.
I want to know what to expect when I unbox it. So I don't assume there will be more models in the future or a XV editor, or a stepsequencer.
If these things have 'dealbreaking capablities', don't buy a Jupiter-X.

Mahobe wrote:

And of course I will decide myself which forum is more of my taste. I will be around here as many times as I like, too.

Of course!

Oleq wrote:

About updates and upgrades
Bonus or not, looks like Yamaha is adding as much as a sequencer to the new synths.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KP2p4awFaXE

So, the touchscreen does mean more flexibility...

I am not into the Montage and Modx, but it seems like a great update.
But as always, I see a lot of people complaining about what this update didn't do for them (besides a lof of people who are very happy with this update).

There is no doubt that it is great when a company updates its instruments and give it new functionality, but there's another side to this. How finished is a product when there are a lot of updates/improvements?
I don't think this is applicable to the Montage in special, but in general I think it's a fair question.
Assuming that an update that will turn the Jupiter-80 into a workstation is not reasonable I think.
Just like kimsnarf said, the Jupiter-80 always felt like a finished product to me.