new fa-07 owner

Pretty sure song size is only limited by the sd card which I believe can be 16gb max.

Thanks Gatorjohn. I have been getting some time to mess around with my FA-07, and I am discovering a few things. I am using a 32GB SD card, and it is working fine. I transferred th contents of the Roland 4 GB card to it, and then loaded all the Integra 7 patch sets on it, and have been able to load those into my FA-07 as per the youtube videos on the subject. I used a 64 GB USB flash drive to load the expansion sets also into my FA-07, again as per a youtube video. All that worked fine, as did upgrading the firmware from 2.0 to 2.01.

My understanding of the three FA units is that the FA-06 and FA-08 were introduced first, and the FA-07 came along with the 2.0 firmware update. The update to 2.01 was a very minor fix.

As for my initial question, thanks for the clarification. I still have not seen any references to that question anywhere else.

My intention is to just go through the manual and videos, taking it step by step, now that I have three pedals connected and everything I want loaded into the FA-07. I have seen some really nice seuences folks on youtube have put together using just the FA-06 or FA-08. There is some really decent music being made with these products.

Tony

Have you read this? :-

http://forums.rolandclan.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=48129

Thanks Skijumptoes. I had not rad that thread, but it doesn't really tell me anything. Being able to have 997 measures in terms of that number being allowable and having enough memory capacity to hold enough midi events to adequately fill those measures are two different things.

As an example, I also have an Integra-7. If I had a very dense sequence that used up all 128 voices (which is a variable in itself because that number is affected by how a given voice is structured, as is typical for most workstations), I could assign one or more tracks in the FA-07 to midi out, going to the Integra-7. Therefore, I could conceivably have generated a very large number of midi events. Depending on what the capacity of the FA-07 is, that may or may not be possible.

Also, consider that a "midi event" can be many different things. First, we have not on as one event, and note off (usually note on with a velocity of 0) rather than the actual note off these days. Then, every time you use any controller such as an attached pedal, the D-Beam, the wheel/lever at the left end of the keyboard, knob changes that may be recorded, anything generated by the 16 pads, etc., all add up. All of those I just mentioned other than a simple keypress will typically generate a lot of midi events as control changes (CC messages).

Knowing what the limitations are, is therefore rather important. I found a few videos of some very nice performances on the FA series on youtube, so I know that the sequencer can hold a reasonable amount of midi data, but I find it curious that the sequencer capacity is not specified as it typically is on a workstation.

Thanks,

Tony

As this is a much more modern approach by Roland, particularly the efficiency of their file systems (Quick!). i've just presumed that it's only limited by SD size. i.e. No matter how many midi events, as long as the capacity is there to store them and re-address them on recall is the only factor?

The samples that you load up on a song basis, for example go immediately into the SD Card without even saving the song so there's definitely direct access happen, and i presume the same is true of songs. I mean the storage required for samples is way beyond MIDI data so it's probably not even a concern for them anymore perhaps?

However, you're not looking for my, or anyone else's presumptions, so that still isn't really going to help you.

You may need to contact Roland my friend!

Skijumptoes wrote:

As this is a much more modern approach by Roland, particularly the efficiency of their file systems (Quick!). i've just presumed that it's only limited by SD size. i.e. No matter how many midi events, as long as the capacity is there to store them and re-address them on recall is the only factor?

The samples that you load up on a song basis, for example go immediately into the SD Card without even saving the song so there's definitely direct access happen, and i presume the same is true of songs. I mean the storage required for samples is way beyond MIDI data so it's probably not even a concern for them anymore perhaps?

However, you're not looking for my, or anyone else's presumptions, so that still isn't really going to help you.

You may need to contact Roland my friend!

I am hoping that it does work as you say. I am aware that samples go directly to, and are streamed from the SD card. So that may likewise be true for midi sequencing. One possible way to find out is to remove the SD card and see what the keyboard can and can't do without it. Of course, it is also possible that the sequencer only uses internal memory in the absence of an SD card.

Interesting problem. :)

An interesting thing, in my mind, is that the Akai MPC X that I just sold, can't steam sample to/from disk (SSD, SD card, ...). It has 2 GB of internal RAM, which holds the OS, any samples you load, any samples you create but have not yet saved, midi data, and any audio track data. The device is memory-bound for all of that, being unable to stream to/from disk. The device is a sample device (i.e. it doesn't have a sound module), though it can send midi data to external midi devices. To me, that memory-bound architecture is seriously limited. I got rid of the MPC X because it really doesn't fit my workflow, but also because I discovered some serious architectural limitations, and that tells me there will likely be a "MK II" product in the not-too-distant future. A lot of folks are complaining about the various limitations in their forums.

With the FA-07, it matches my workflow well, has everything I could want in a workstation, and is easy to use. Aso, in the forums, the overall tone is very positive, telling me folks are not running into insurmountable issues. To me, the FA series is an amazing bargain. I don't care at all for the keybed on the FA-06, but the FA-07 and FA-08 are quite nice.

I think my concern about the amount of midi data the sequencer can handle is probably largely academic, since I have listened to some really involved tracks, all done on one of the FA series.

Thanks again for the information, Skijumptoes. :)

Tony

I'll have a try later in the evening, in fact if i record a ton of controller changes and notes on and off, in a bar, copy them to each of the 16 parts, and then copy repeat them to all 997 measures be interesting how many 'events' that equals and what happens too.

If i sequence 100 events into a bar, then copy into 16 parts (100*16), then into 997 (1600*997) measures that would equal about 1.5 million events - it may just catch fire :)

I'm sure i've pulled the SD card before and the song just disappears, but i may be completely wrong on that front, and it could be the samples i was thinking about that disappeared. The fact that you have to save songs, yet not samples (Which are saved automatically with the song oddly) may mean it stays loaded in memory, i'll know for sure when i try.

Skijumptoes wrote:

I'll have a try later in the evening, in fact if i record a ton of controller changes and notes on and off, in a bar, copy them to each of the 16 parts, and then copy repeat them to all 997 measures be interesting how many 'events' that equals and what happens too.

If i sequence 100 events into a bar, then copy into 16 parts (100*16), then into 997 (1600*997) measures that would equal about 1.5 million events - it may just catch fire :)

I'm sure i've pulled the SD card before and the song just disappears, but i may be completely wrong on that front, and it could be the samples i was thinking about that disappeared. The fact that you have to save songs, yet not samples (Which are saved automatically with the song oddly) may mean it stays loaded in memory, i'll know for sure when i try.

That would be great and I would be really interested in what you discover.

Tony

Ok, so you pull the SD card, you just lose samples - song stays in memory regardless.

I just recorded 400-500 events into a bar loop and copied it to all 16 parts which copied fine (6500-8000 events).

Trouble is the FA locked up when i played the sequence lol - it played them back, it just wouldn't respond to the stop button, so was unable to carry out the initial test i wanted. I guess this is because they were all identical events playing at the same time on multiple parts :)

So, tried a different approach using less notes and mainly controller changes, recorded >100 events across 4 bars, and staggered them across 7 parts, then copied across to the 997 measures/bars. So that's:

997 Measures * 7 Parts = 6,979 Bars of sequence data, with an average of 25 events per bar = approx 175k events, and that played back without any issues or slowdown whatsoever.

I then went to copy part 1 in it's entirety (24k events) to part 8 and got a 'Song full' warning (woooo!)! :)

So, there is a limit there, and looks like it could be in the 175-200k range, it was only a rough experiment.

EDIT: Just realised that i hadn't copied part 5 correctly, so we could be in the 150k region here where it maxes out! I thought it'd be much higher i must admit, as the fantoms had about 400k 'note' capacity, not sure how that equated to controller changes etc.

EDIT 2: Now trying a different 'notes only' test:-

Recorded 100 notes into a bar, copied 997 times (99.7k notes for part 1 now on sequencer), went to copy all of track 1 to track 2 - and got 'Song Full' warning as it went to copy.

So, copied 500 measures from Track 1 to Track 2 thinking this will take us just under 150k - But this caused the FA to lock up on 'executing...', i left it 5 minutes, but in the end had to switch it off.

So there's definitely a capacity in there as it checks itself before copying... not sure what it is though, as i'm out of time to try anything else, and partially concerned that i'm gonna break my FA lol! :(

Thanks so much for doing all that Skijumptoes! When you said:

Recorded 100 notes into a bar, copied 997 times (99.7k notes for part 1 now on sequencer), went to copy all of track 1 to track 2 - and got 'Song Full' warning as it went to copy.

...to me that indicates somewhere in the vicinity of close to 200k notes (99.7k * 2) because a note consists of two midi events: note on, followed by either note off or note on with volume 0, depending on how midi is implemented on the FA series. So there does seem to be a consistency across all that you have done here.

Considering that many workstations have/had far less, usually on the order of 90k to 130k midi events, I woud say that the FA is definitely up to the task. :)

By the way, the reason we need two midi events to create a note is that the first event tells what note to play and at what volume level (velocity), and provides a start time. The second event provides the end time and stops the note from sounding. Other events that would affect how the note might change during the time the note is sounding would be channel type events. Note on and off are their own separate type of event. So, duration of a note is determined by the delta of the note on and off event times.

Thanks,

Tony

Ah yes, that would be double the events, you're right - duh! :)

I have seem info somewhere (cant remember now), and had it confirmed by roland technical UK that the sequencer on the Fantoms are unlimited - that is there is no limit on the number of midi events you can record.

The song full issue your experiencing certainly seems to indicate a limit on size though. I had thought the FA recorded info directly to the SD card, so any limit would be due to the size of the card - however you say that pulling the card leaves the song data so ????

I must say that the more I use my FA-07 for daily practice, the more I am coming to appreciate what Roland has done at such a price point. I can practice much longer on the 76 key keyboard than on a piano. also, I can experiment with different pianos and piano-like sounds, keeping things interesting and presenting what I am playing in different sonic perspectives. Being able to immediately hear how I am doing, using the easy to use sequencer, is a real bonus. I can't remember when I have been so pleased with a piece of equipment. It is as if it was designed for me. :)

Tony

I've owned mine for several years now, and it still amazes me that no matter where you are, what sound you are playing with - you just hit record if you've come up with something and it's the basis of a new song.

I mean, not having to mess about with song setups, changing modes and resetting your MFX's etc. all of that just isn't an issue anymore.

Likewise, if i've created some cool splits and arps with the part view, i just record, and again, it's the basis of a song idea.

That and the sounds it's capable of are my two biggest factors why i love the FA, it's just so instant.