Controlling another Controller

ReplayKeys,

I'd love to help and I know a thing or two about multiple keyboard setups but your question and mostly your actual goal is difficult to comprehend. Your nomenclature is confusing and inconsistent, it is not clear to me what you are to trying to control with what. For example you say

Is there a way for the Fantom to also control the SK itself (i.e., as if the SK were the Fantom's keyboard)

which is saying two opposite things: the first part appears to says that you want the 'control' (play sounds from?) the SK using the Fantom's keyboard whereas the second part says the opposite: play sounds using the Fantom's sound engine from the SK keyboard.

That's just one example, to be honest I cannot make heads or tail of what you're writing. The lack of paragraphs also doesn't help incidentally.

To go on a bit, what does

effect the SK's splits from the Fantom

mean exactly? What is a

key split command

? And then you again write

as if the SK were the Fantom's keyboard

but I doubt that is what you really want. The Remote Keyboard setting in the Fantom would do that perfectly by the way but again it probably doesn't do what you expect.

I think if you rephrase youre question and state in clear terms what you are trying to accomplish you will stand a better chance of getting a meaningful response (at least from me).

Arjan, I'll try again. On my 2-keyboard live performance rig, the Fantom is the sound generator, brains, and master controller, and my Studiologic (controller board only, no internal sounds) is attached to the Fantom's midi in. The Studiologic sends on midi channel 2, and every Fantom performance reserves midi channel 2 for what will be played on the Studiologic's keyboard (and the "keyboard send" switch is unchecked in the "level/pan" section of the Fantom's layer/split function. This works, except that I would like the Studiologic instead to be able to do keyboard splits (like the Fantom does) and therefore send on more channels than channel 2. I have lots of performances and the splits vary. Ideally, if I could send midi messages from the Fantom to tell the Studiologic to split its keyboard and assign midi channels to the zones, all from the Fantom, and all of this could be saved to each Performance, I could get what I want. The Fantom's graphic layer/split section easily shows the splits for its own keybed; I was wondering if that same section could be used for slave keyboards.

I suggest the following (let's say for example you want two sounds splitted on the Studiologic):
- assign the keybord range for both patches (patch A and patch B) inside the patches (patch edit -> TMT -> Key Range Lower and Key Range Upper) and then save them to the user memory
- edit a performance: Part View -> Level/Pan -> patch A to part 2 and patch B to part 3
- Part View -> Level/Pan -> Keyboard Switch off for both parts 2 and 3; but I usually (I don't remember why!) turn it on on part 2 (i.e. only on the first part received from the Studiologic) and turn it off on part 3 (i.e. on all the other parts received from the Studiologic)
- Part View -> External -> assign channel 2 to both part 2 and part 3
- Part View -> External -> Receive Switch on for both parts 2 and 3
- Part View -> Key Range -> assign the keyboard range to G9-G9 for both parts 2 and 3 (this way parts 2 and 3 will not play on the Fantom's keyboard, only on the Studiologic's one)
- save the performance

Paolo

Paolo, thanks. I think I know what you're trying to do, and it should work - I've done this in effect to make two-hand "chords" on the Fantom itself when playing with one hand, so it should work on the StudioLogic. Thanks! I was thinking more about what Arjan said, and I think what I was unintelligently hoping for was a CC or some kind of control message sent via MIDI that would let the Fantom's keyboard split controls take the place of and operate the Studiologic's controls. However, I sense that the split controls and the note on/off, etc. controls are not themselves MIDI-controlled. Still, your idea works, I think!

The Fantom's graphic layer/split section easily shows the splits for its own keybed; I was wondering if that same section could be used for slave keyboards.

Nope. Like geppastro says you can edit the key range of the patches themselves but it's note quite as convenient. For parts that you want to control from you SK you should set KB switch off and Rx switch on.

I had a discussion about this with Roland CE but they maintained that it is the external secondary MIDI keyboard that is responsible for managing splits and sending on different MIDI channels. Seemed to be a fundamental issue for them but I do not agree, it would be infinitely more convenient if the Performance Key Range could also be used for incoming MIDI data.

I used to play with two keyboards, one (a D-70) being used exclusively to have access to more sounds on the Fantom X through MIDI (actually I had a JP-8000 as well but it was used for its own sounds and played from its own keyboard).

Even with that setup I had difficulty arranging everything so that I could do live what I can do in the studio. I used Lazeeboy's live switching method but found it a bit too cumbersome and not quite enough. So I started looking for a sound management switching solution that would allow me to play everything from one keyboard.

Now I'm using a Netbook with my own software to switch sounds and control splits and layers not just on my Fantom but also for my JP-8080 (replaced the JP-8000), XV-5080 and my Korg CX-3. I'm playing everything from my Fantom's keyboard through that software, switching sounds/splits/layers by pressing a footpedal. Have a look at http://www.livecommander.com .

Arjan: "Like geppastro says you can edit the key range of the patches themselves but it's note quite as convenient."

Actually, I've been using this method for 3 years now. I find it not bad at all. I guess it's mostly about self-organization.

Paolo

I didn't say it's bad, I only said it's 'not as convenient'.

I used this method until I started using so many sounds on some songs that two 76 note keyboards wasn't enough to have immediate access to all of them using just splits. Then I started using Lazeeboy's SysEx sound switch trick for a while and that really is inconvenient to program, even though it works like a charm.

I then tried using a foot controller to send the SysEx sequences so I could continue playing while switching sounds for really smooth transitions but programming the foot controller was a laborious task with it's tiny display and limited buttons. That's when I decided I needed (or wanted) something better and easier.

Too much technical excise can get in the way of creative flow, that's all.

I also use Paolo's method with three external Keyboards (an Old RD-170, a PCR-500 and a A-800 PRO).
Besides controlling the Fantom's Performance Parts, I'm also able to control my other synths (total 6 MIDI channels, I can control up to 6 Independent Parts and or layering them with the V-Synth, and SonicCell.

Just an example, I have always available Bass, Organ+ Leslie, Lead Guitar, Strings, PADs and Piano at the same time, some of them Layered. Very useful and easy to control.

I change patches and performances by sending SySex to the 3 Synths from the PCR and A-PRO MIDI Controllers.

three external Keyboards

Exactly. I didn't want to go there and hide myself between stacks of keyboards. If it wasn't for the fact that my CX-3 is not available as a module I would have just one keyboard left on stage. Actually I just bought an AX Synth so I'm up one keyboard again but that doesn't really count, does it?

I'm not saying it doesn't work (I did it like that for several years myself) but the way I do it now makes it easier to program, easier to play and easier to actually be seen on stage. It just makes everything more fun.

Hi Arjan,
The only disadvantage of having just one keyboard is the lack of keys for some passages, and much more switching and programming involved, which maybe makes the thing "more fun", but less practical, in my perspective

Splits are fine until you run out of keys like I did. But even so transitioning between one sound and another is faster and smoother with a pedal to change the sound and keeping your hands in the same area on the same keyboard.

Quite a few of the songs that I play live I previously did on three keyboards; now I do those same songs on just one keyboard and in somes cases with even more variety in sounds than before and I have found that with just one keyboard and a pedal those same songs are actually easier to play and the transitions are smoother.

Good thing we all have our own perspective Anyway, I gues ReplayKeys has enough information to move ahead and choose whatever method works best for him.

In fact I do prefer having the keys and the sounds always available, than having to be switching all the time, but that's me.

In fact I also use pedals to switch functions inside a specific Performance (Song), but the major part of Sound switching is already prepared and available from the beginning (with minor minor modifs here and there, if needed).

The switching between songs (different Sounds/performances), is mainly made by using the A-800 PRO and PCR-500 PADs and Sysex.

I also plan to use a FCB-1010 or similar, just for the sake of allowing MIDI to be controlled from a PEDAL (I agree with you here, as it's a lot easier if we maintain our hands free), although the control we get with one of those is quite limited and difficult to program...)

And yes, it's good that we all have our different perspectives.

@ReplayKeys...like Arjan said, it's up to you to see what solution or combination of solutions suits you best

Ah...and MERRY CHRISTMAS to you all !!!

Forgive the late response - holidays and all. Thanks to all of you. The level of talent here is always so great. I have tested out Paolo's suggestion and it works beautifully enough. I also used everyone's info to successfully control the A-70's memory to load its own "performances" (i.e., keyboard splits, etc.) so for the 64 A-70 "performances" I can achieve what I wanted. The Fatar is another matter, however. I am trying to learn more about sysex commands because my sense from the info in this thread and elsewhere is that's a way to make changes. I am now spending time with Arjan's brilliant computer-based controller. You guys are other-worldly. Happy New Year to all!

You're welcome! Also, I've edited a little my first post.

Paolo