Fantom-S and Fantom-X

Multiple performances saved with song/patterns

Multiple performances saved with song/patterns

16 Apr 2009, 15:37
I ran out of Performances saved in User and Card. Now I have to find another way to save Performances to recall during live performances. I know that a song can recall a Performance saved during any temp adjustments and settings to that Performance, including changes to the name of the Performance, to the song that it saves to. So when you load a song, such as a fast load, it will bring up the name of the Performance you save to that song. An asterisk will appear at the beginning of the Performance name to indicate a temporary change to the current Performance in that place. Anyway, that's the basic that I know. Here's the real question.

A Preset/User/Card Performance can be set as a 'favorite' Performance in the Live Setting screen, and can be accessed by the 8 function button. Let's say I have a song that uses 2 or 3 Performances at once, I would line up the 3 Performances in the Live Setting screen, and then access the Function button to switch between Performances. It's all there at your disposal. All 8 on the first screen, Shift-F(1-8) for the next 8 'favorites'.

When you save a song, you have only 1 Performance to be loaded back to the User or Card Performance area. The question is: Can it load more than 1 Performance setting? Remember I mentioned that an asterisk will indicate that that Performance is temporary. If you jump to a different Performance, that temporary Performance loaded up by the song will be lost. So how would I jump between Performances when once I switch to a different Performance that current Performance loaded from the song will be lost?

So my point is, even though a song can save a different Performance for you when you run out of place to save your Performances, it still doesn't have the flexibility of multiple Performances that you need if more than 1 Performance is needed for the live show during that 1 song.

Anyone know if it's possible to have more than 1 Performance saved within a song? Somebody mentioned in this forum that you can save a different Performance using a Pattern within a song, which can be different than the song's Performance itself. That would work if I can line up the patterns on the pads and press the pad to change to a different Performance. But how do you initiate that change? Press the 'play' button to run the sysex messages or something? Or loop a one measure song so that it continuously play the "empty" song, so that when I trigger the pattern from the pads it will switch to a different Performance (it will write over the temporary Performance from the song) that it saved to that pattern by 1 command. If this is the case I would also create a 'main' pattern that would bring back the song's Performance, an idea similar to an arranger with 'main', 'intro', 'fills', etc. In this case the patterns can be unlimited settings of Performances for the song parts (main, chorus, solos, etc.)

Are the ideas above even possible or currently existing in the Fantom X? Let me know what your thoughts are.

Thanks.

Re: Multiple performances saved with song/patterns

17 Apr 2009, 03:07
Hi bonzai,

You're limited to one Performance in memory at any given time, but that Performance can have up to 16 parts within it.

You need to read the Fantom-X 2.0 live sound switching tutorial thread.

Take it slow, because it can get quite complicated, but it is more than possible to do what you need within one Performance and song file with a bit of planning and head scratching.

I've ceratinly used the ideas there to make Performances that switch up to 5 times in a single song.

Feel free to ask questions, but maybe ask them there so we keep all the info together.

Hope this helps
Andy
Andy

Re: Multiple performances saved with song/patterns

17 Apr 2009, 09:01
The tutorial you're referring to is to switch parts within a Performance (on or off). If you're layering sounds, then you could take off sounds that you don't need in a certain section of a song while in a live performance. I do a lot of layering, sometimes using all 16 parts for that Performance. I need to use a different Performance layer for the Solo, for example, or a different Performance for the Intro. The different Performances will use all 16 parts all at once. I run out of storage pretty fast with this setup.

The feature I'm looking for is at a higher level, like switching Performances within a Live session. But those Performances have all been saved in a song, not just one but could be many...all 64 Performances if possible. The feature that I'm looking for is not so much in editing the 16 parts in a Performance, like the tutorial, but more like bringing up all the multiple Performances that I saved for the song. This is because we are limited to 64 or 128 Performances saved to the User or Card section. If we didn't have this limitation, the songs can bring up all the multiple Performances that I set for the song. Basically saving the song saves all temporary edits held in the buffer. Unfortunately the buffer doesn't have enough room to hold multiple Performances simultaneously.

The Fantom-G gives more User and Card spaces to save your Performances. This will fix this limitation...only to a point. You will still run out eventually and will have to figure out another way to save multiple Performances like I'm doing here for the Fantom-X.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks.

Re: Multiple performances saved with song/patterns

17 Apr 2009, 10:47
I think the live switching method is the way to go. You are limited to 64 User Performances, 64 card and the temporary one in memory at any current time.

I also have songs that use up to 16 layers at any given time. If you use the switchy method you can set a pad, footpedal or key to switch ALL the 16 layers in an instant, so you have your intro layers as the "load-up" settings of the performance. Pad one changes the Patches on all 16 layers, or switches them off for your verse. Pad 2 does the same for the chorus, Pad 3 goes back to the verse. etc

That way you can effectively change the Performance completely as many times as you have pads or keys spare that you're not actually playing music on.

If you're sequencing, it's easier, but for live use, once you've got it set up, there isn't really an easier way, short of programming simpler sounds for live use, which I've also done.

Hope this helps.
Andy
Andy

Re: Multiple performances saved with song/patterns

17 Apr 2009, 11:18
Although I also use Lazeeboy's tutorial live. Which is great btw.

It is possible to save performances in a song, maybe switching needs a couple of seconds and you need to enter mutes in the patterns (this to overcome unwanted sounds :-( ).

Anyhow, it may work for you :-)

1) save your PERFORMANCES as midi. (with the FantomX editor software)
2) Transfer these MIDI midifiles back to your fantom.
3) Load these seperately with the load track option and choose for each MIDI(=PERFORMANCE) a different track destination (1 upto 16)
4) Copy the Tracks to Patterns , track 1 to track 1, track 2 to tarck 2 .... track 16 to 16.
5) Now, assign these patterns to your PADS with the RPS function, make sure that playback mode of your pattern = ONCE.
6) You can delete the tracks (not the patterns).
7) now you can use the PADS to switch between 16 performances.

If you need assistance, you can sent me the PERFORMANCES and I'll put these in a song for you.

Pressing Play is not Required, just make sure that your RPS is switched on.


Grtz
Jabber

Re: Multiple performances saved with song/patterns

17 Apr 2009, 11:28
OK, so we're getting close to what I'm looking for...
Let's say I have Performance 1 having the 16 parts all set up the way I wanted for the Intro of the song, and I have that Performance 1 saved in the song. Now for the Solo part I would like every 16 parts to change, including EFX, volume change, etc. all setting of a saved Performance (in this case, not saved because no more User space). Let's call this Performance 2. Performance 2 is not saved anywhere. It is called up instantaneously by sysex or some method by triggering pads like you suggested, to "design" a new Performance on-the-fly when a pad is pressed. I would assume that if I am on the Layer/Split screen I can see the name of the Performance to change when the pad is pressed to change to that performance setting. This would be a temporary buffer of the Performance that is created. It will be lost when I change to a different Performance (by moving the dial or inc/dec button). I probably would need a pad button for the 'Intro' part to recall the original Performance that was brought up when the song is uploaded.

Is this the right concept?

Thanks.

Re: Multiple performances saved with song/patterns

17 Apr 2009, 11:46
Hmmm...interesting.
Let's say in worse case none of my Performances are stored in the User or Card. No more room for them to store there. I am forced to save them to a song that would call them up to the temp buffer and will be lost when I switch to another Performance. I don't believe it will be lost if I switch to 'Patch' mode. I don't have this problem if my song only uses one Performance for the entire song. I only have this problem when more than one Performance is needed.

Back to your suggestion to send you the Performances...I will pick a song that has multiple changes of Performances, and those Performances are not stored in any User or Card. That is, it is only called up from a song load. Since a song can only save 1 Performance at a time, I will send you multiple files with different Performance for that same song. For example, song_Intro contains the Performance settings for that song at the Intro part. The file "song_Chorus" will have a different Performance settings for that song at the Chorus. The file "song_Solo" will have a Performance setting for that same song at the Solo section. We know that all 3 Performances can never be loaded up when a song is called, but with your help hopefully you can merge all Performances into one song so that I can press a pad to trigger the Performance setting that I want at any particular section of the song. I assume the name of that Performance will also appear on the 'Layer/Split' screen to verify that I called the correct Performance (so I won't be surprised to play a weird sound at that performing part). In theory, it's almost like loading the song "song_Intro" to bring up the Intro Performance setting for that song, and then loading up the song "song_Solo" to bring up the Solo Performance settings for that same song. The only thing about this is the tremendous lag time. Not very intuitive anyway.

Any thoughts?

Thanks.

Re: Multiple performances saved with song/patterns

17 Apr 2009, 12:15
Yes, the name of the selected PERFORMANCE will appear in the layer/split screen.

Lagtime, well I did a small test with 2 performances (these are max 1,5 measurement's long) if we put the song tempo to max 300bpm ? That would be the fastest way I think.

Re: Multiple performances saved with song/patterns

17 Apr 2009, 12:42
A much easier way than using the editor to create the performance midi data is to use the Fantoms own sequencer.
For this you have to use the sysex dump messages. Just place the dump request at the start of a pattern and record it.
This way it will record directly to the pattern you want to use.
After recording just remove the dump request from the start.
Now you can have the performance at the pads, keys or in the song.

If you dont know what the dump requests are, please look at this topic and the attachment from Artemio:
http://forums.rolandclan.info/index.php?action=show_thread&thread=16438&fid=1&page=1
It should have all the info you will need.

best regards
M.Z

Re: Multiple performances saved with song/patterns

17 Apr 2009, 12:59
Indeed works fine, thx for that one.

Putting the sysex F0 41 10 00 6B 11 10 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 6F F7 in the beginning of a pattern with Microscope Edit.

And afterwards hit record , the current performance settings will be stored in the pattern as sysex strings.

Afterwards just delete the SYSEX string F0 41 10 00 6B 11 10 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 6F F7 in the pattern.

And repeat this for all your performances to different patterns.

So, PC is not required , sorry for that but I wasn't aware of this Dump Sysex string.

Grtz
Jabber

Re: Multiple performances saved with song/patterns

17 Apr 2009, 13:20
I could add that it can be better if you use the method described in the dump request documentation, i.e. just record in song mode to track 1.

Requests for a full performance will use 17 sysex messages.

Re: Multiple performances saved with song/patterns

17 Apr 2009, 14:04
"Requests for a full performance will use 17 sysex messages."

Can you clarify that? Full performance..is that all 16 parts within that Performance that I'm trying to save into the song? "Not full performance".... is that selective tracks I want to save for that song?

So what you're saying is...
For each Performance created in the temp buffer, save it into the song's pattern. Then create another Performance into the temp buffer, then save it into the same song, but in a different pattern. Your suggestion is to record this Performance to the pattern of the song currently in use, not the tracks. Is this correct?

Would it be a good idea to reserve one User Performance place to create the new Performance and save it there. Then when you load the song it will overwrite the current Performance with the one in the song into that buffer. Then turn the dial over to the new Performance that I created in the User Performance place and record that Performance into the song's pattern. Then, perhaps at a later time I decide to create another Performance to be added to that song, then I can re-use that User Performance to save that Performance there. After loading the song, I turn the dial back to that new Performance saved and record it into a new pattern within that song. It will add Performances after Performances endlessly until I ran out of something, like ideas, patterns, songs, etc. Is this correct?

What are your thoughts?

Thanks

Re: Multiple performances saved with song/patterns

17 Apr 2009, 14:32
Have you downloaded the dump request tutorial? Look at the "whole performance (16 parts + controllers/parts/effects settings)" There is 17 sysex dump requests, one for each part and one that calls the "controllers/parts/effects settings" (The performance settings). So this one saves every patch and the performance.

Sure you can use the method of recording directly to pattern, but you should then remove the request that are not needed anymore (they would be just unnecessarily strain to the cpu).
Or use the method of the tutorial, just record to track 1 and then copy it where ever you need it. In the example songs the request are in track 2 so you dont need to remove them.

Re: Multiple performances saved with song/patterns

17 Apr 2009, 15:01
Saving performances using sysex messages in a song to RPS is brilliant.... and it's possible only on Roland's workstations.... since all settings for 16 parts including the effects, routings, setting for each key of drum kits are taken from temporary buffers and not the saved patches....

You do not need a dedicated performance slot. Everything is called into the buffer... so if you have performance one on RPS1, and 2 on RPS2... when you play RPS2, everything will be overwritten... no need to switch to performance mode....

Just have your different performances in separate patterns.. It doesn't matter on which track you record on.. it's irrelevant since the track are multitrack. Just make sure that it's recorded on to the Global Channel. Usually channel 1.
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