FRAUD: DON'T BUY EXPANSIONS IN ROLAND CLOUD!!

2 Apr 2022, 05:59

I wanted to sell my Jupiter XM including JD800 and Voice Designer expansion in order to buy a Fantom 0. The two Jupiter XM expansions cost me more than 300 bucks. But I was told by Roland support that it's not allowed to transfer the expansion licenses to the buyer even though it's clearly stated in the Roland Cloud EULA: "You may transfer the Software on a permanent basis as part of the sale or transfer of the hardware system on which the Software is loaded, provided that You retain no copies of any version of the Software."

This is nothing but fraud by Roland. Based on the EULA I purchased these expansions in the firm belief that I would be able to sell them together with the hardware if needed. I mean, these expansions can only be used with the Jupiter X/XM hardware! Which sense does it make to keep software which will be completely unusable once the hardware is sold!?

I really begin to hate Roland and it's cloud which is completely customer unfriendly! With Arturia or Native Instruments and others it was never any problem to transfer software licenses to buyers when the related hardware was sold. So be aware if you ever want to buy one of these expensive expansions in the Roland cloud. You will be stuck with what you bought forever, no matter if you still own the related hardware synth in the future or not.

You must read this bollocks I received from Roland support: "You can transfer the JD-800 model expansion software that's installed on the hardware by not resetting the hardware prior to sale, and the new owner could continue to use that install until they did a factory reset or wanted to install further software, but the license itself is non-transferable."

So, who would buy a expanded Jupiter XM, knowing that he would loose the expansion worth several hundreds of bucks once a new OS will be released? Lesson learned, I will never again buy any Roland hardware, at least in any case none that is related to the cloud. Such an annoyance!

Re: FRAUD: DON'T BUY EXPANSIONS IN ROLAND CLOUD!!

2 Apr 2022, 10:23

Hardly a fraud, just a questionable business policy.

It's in the UELA from the beginning:

https://www.rolandcloud.com/Policies-EULA-TOS

4. Product Content Accessed by Roland Hardware Instruments and Devices.

a. Certain Roland equipment will be needed to be able to access and use specific Membership Keys made available through the Roland Cloud Service that is suitable for use on a specific instrument or device, as long as the device has been registered on the same Account as the Membership Keys.

b. Membership Keys cannot be installed onto a hardware product that has been registered with another Account.

c. To change or delete the Account registered with the applicable hardware product, you need to delete all the Content installed on that hardware. In this case, we do not guarantee that no data will be lost.

d. Your Account Information and hardware registration needs to be removed and all installed Product Content needs to be deleted from the equipment when transferring/reselling hardware products. Selling the hardware does not transfer the license to the Product Content that has been installed on it.

alpha2 wrote:
So, who would buy a expanded Jupiter XM, knowing that he would loose the expansion worth several hundreds of bucks once a new OS will be released?

Nope.
Resetting the User Licence is a different process than upgrading the firmware.
You can upgrade (or downgrade) at will the OS without loosing the licence installed on the hardware.
It only becomes a problem if the buyer wants to purchase his own EXZ or EXM, because that can't be installed along the previous owner's content.
But if the seller gives his EXZ/EXM files with the device, you can go back and forth the two, provided there's only material tied to one licence at the time on the machine.

I'm not fond of this either. It's one in many reasons why I got rid of my Jupiter-Xm, sold with all extra EXZ/EXM content but not the RCM account credentials (since I have other Roland gear registered).

Re: FRAUD: DON'T BUY EXPANSIONS IN ROLAND CLOUD!!

2 Apr 2022, 22:17

alpha2 wrote:
I wanted to sell my Jupiter XM including JD800 and Voice Designer expansion in order to buy a Fantom 0. The two Jupiter XM expansions cost me more than 300 bucks. But I was told by Roland support that it's not allowed to transfer the expansion licenses to the buyer even though it's clearly stated in the Roland Cloud EULA: "You may transfer the Software on a permanent basis as part of the sale or transfer of the hardware system on which the Software is loaded, provided that You retain no copies of any version of the Software."

This is nothing but fraud by Roland. Based on the EULA I purchased these expansions in the firm belief that I would be able to sell them together with the hardware if needed. I mean, these expansions can only be used with the Jupiter X/XM hardware! Which sense does it make to keep software which will be completely unusable once the hardware is sold!?

I really begin to hate Roland and it's cloud which is completely customer unfriendly! With Arturia or Native Instruments and others it was never any problem to transfer software licenses to buyers when the related hardware was sold. So be aware if you ever want to buy one of these expensive expansions in the Roland cloud. You will be stuck with what you bought forever, no matter if you still own the related hardware synth in the future or not.

You must read this bollocks I received from Roland support: "You can transfer the JD-800 model expansion software that's installed on the hardware by not resetting the hardware prior to sale, and the new owner could continue to use that install until they did a factory reset or wanted to install further software, but the license itself is non-transferable."

So, who would buy a expanded Jupiter XM, knowing that he would loose the expansion worth several hundreds of bucks once a new OS will be released? Lesson learned, I will never again buy any Roland hardware, at least in any case none that is related to the cloud. Such an annoyance!

Where did you get the quote from the EULA here? I don't see it in the EULA that's currently posted on Roland Cloud and instead I see the version Foksadure quoted.

Is it possible this is an older EULA that you agreed to in the past and they have since changed it?

Re: FRAUD: DON'T BUY EXPANSIONS IN ROLAND CLOUD!!

3 Apr 2022, 02:24

Lazerlike42 wrote:

Where did you get the quote from the EULA here? I don't see it in the EULA that's currently posted on Roland Cloud and instead I see the version Foksadure quoted.

Is it possible this is an older EULA that you agreed to in the past and they have since changed it?

It's here:
https://www.roland.com/us/support/by_product/rc_roland_cloud_manager/owners_manuals/ff67ecdd-0284-473a-a342-1a1d5f31035f/

Attachments

RC.JPG (198 KB, 810133 downloads) · file not available

Re: FRAUD: DON'T BUY EXPANSIONS IN ROLAND CLOUD!!

3 Apr 2022, 02:33

The message from support contradicts the EULA which I posted above. The EULA states "permanent." When support says "the new owner could continue to use that install until they did a factory reset," that's not permanent.

What else than a fraud is it, if a company sells its products under false pretenses? I will file a complaint to the Better Business Bureau. And it would be interesting to hear what Brian has to say about this incredible bad business practice of Roland.

Re: FRAUD: DON'T BUY EXPANSIONS IN ROLAND CLOUD!!

3 Apr 2022, 05:42

alpha2 wrote:
The message from support contradicts the EULA which I posted above. The EULA states "permanent".

https://www.roland.com/us/support/by_product/rc_roland_cloud_manager/owners_manuals/ff67ecdd-0284-473a-a342-1a1d5f31035f/

To me, that's the generic EULA for the Roland Cloud Manager software itself, hosted at the Roland Support site.

I.e. you can transfer the software when selling/upgrading the computer it's running on, provided you don't keep the files to use the same account on another computer that's not yours. Which makes little sense in case of a computer sale, since you can't use RCM without an account, let alone selling a computer without wiping the storage and operating system...

The Roland_Cloud_Manager_eng01_W.pdf file the EULA applies to has been last edited 2020/04/28.

The products on sale... cough... on loan at Roland Cloud that also can be installed on the hardware are covered by the EULA available at the Roland Cloud website.

https://www.rolandcloud.com/Policies-EULA-TOS

Updated: May 12, 2020

People just don't read EULA: it was there for all to see.

You only own the synth as it is out of the box.
Whatever you buy into RCM and install on ZEN-Core hardware afterwards you don't own and can't legally resale/transfer.

Just like your regular iPhone/iPad or Android device, eh?

Last edited by Foksadure on 3 Apr 2022, 14:19, edited 1 time in total.

Re: FRAUD: DON'T BUY EXPANSIONS IN ROLAND CLOUD!!

3 Apr 2022, 12:57

Updated: May 12, 2020

People just don't read EULA: it was there for all to see.

You only own the synth as it is out of the box.
Whatever you buy into RCM and install on ZEN-Core hardware afterwards you don't own and can't legally resale/transfer.

Just like your regular iPhone/iPad or Android device, eh?
[/quote]

Wait a minute, I DID read the EULA as you can see in my post above. Sorry, but what you are saying about iPhone is bollocks. Any other software I ever bought or licensed was transferable with not a single exception, be it Arturia, Native Instruments or whatever software company it was.

The Roland Cloud poklicy is just ridiculous. I did sell the Jupiter Xm to exchange it with a Fantom 07. But this doesn't make sense now. The JP8, JX8P, Juno 106 and SH101 for the Fantom O would set me back more than 600 bucks. And if you wanto to sell the expanded Fantom 0 in the future you will be stuck with the expansions worth 600 bucks. You could neither transfer them to the buyer of your used Fantom nor keep using the software yourself once the hardware instrument is gone. This is not how any company should treat customers.

Bye bye Roland, hello Yamaha, Nord or Kurzweil!

Re: FRAUD: DON'T BUY EXPANSIONS IN ROLAND CLOUD!!

3 Apr 2022, 13:52

tomkitel wrote:

Updated: May 12, 2020

People just don't read EULA: it was there for all to see.

You only own the synth as it is out of the box.
Whatever you buy into RCM and install on ZEN-Core hardware afterwards you don't own and can't legally resale/transfer.

Just like your regular iPhone/iPad or Android device, eh?
Wait a minute, I DID read the EULA as you can see in my post above. Sorry, but what you are saying about iPhone is bollocks. Any other software I ever bought or licensed was transferable with not a single exception, be it Arturia, Native Instruments or whatever software company it was.

The Roland Cloud poklicy is just ridiculous. I did sell the Jupiter Xm to exchange it with a Fantom 07. But this doesn't make sense now. The JP8, JX8P, Juno 106 and SH101 for the Fantom O would set me back more than 600 bucks. And if you wanto to sell the expanded Fantom 0 in the future you will be stuck with the expansions worth 600 bucks. You could neither transfer them to the buyer of your used Fantom nor keep using the software yourself once the hardware instrument is gone. This is not how any company should treat customers.

Bye bye Roland, hello Yamaha, Nord or Kurzweil!

For what it's worth, I agree with the other poster that the EULA you cited is for the Roland Cloud Manager software itself, not the various things you can download from the Roland Cloud.

On the other hand, I agree with you that it's a but lousy for the policy to be this way and to prevent customers from transferring these various instrument downloads.

That having been said, it's actually not that unusual a policy, especially in the music industry. While you cite Native Instruments as an example of a company that doesn't do this, it's an extremely common policy among VSTs and other music software. I'm pretty involved with VSTs and the communities of people who use them and this is actually a very common complaint among users of VSTs: most companies have no transfer policies, while others have policies which theoretically allow it but require case by case approval and don't often actually grant permission. In fact it's a bit worse where VSTs are concerned because while you could sell a piece of hardware and as long as the new owner doesn't try to remove any add ones you've put in they can keep using them, with VSTs there are usually software protection measures in place that require the license to be checked on a regular basis and so it's basically impossible to do even this.

Re: FRAUD: DON'T BUY EXPANSIONS IN ROLAND CLOUD!!

3 Apr 2022, 14:44

tomkitel wrote:
Wait a minute, I DID read the EULA as you can see in my post above. Sorry, but what you are saying about iPhone is bollocks.

Depends on the EULA you're talking about. ^^
I was as pissed as you are when I red the one at Roland Cloud website, lesson learned too.

But this is the way it is : Roland did not force us to buy this stuff, even though it took a couple of firmware updates to have the licensing scheme enforced. I.e when they introduced the sound pack installation functionality:
https://static.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/JUPITER-X_Xm_Sound_Install_eng03_W.pdf

You're not giving your Apple/Google account credentials when selling an old phone (or soon an old car), do you?
Roland wants us to do the same with their current gear.

The good news is that all the EXZ packs are free for Fantom-0 owners, just like they are for the Fantom-2019.
You just can't have all of them installed at once.
EXM, that's another (expensive) story, until someone cracks that open.

Re: FRAUD: DON'T BUY EXPANSIONS IN ROLAND CLOUD!!

7 Apr 2022, 19:05

Foksadure wrote:

The good news is that all the EXZ packs are free for Fantom-0 owners, just like they are for the Fantom-2019.

Are you sure they're free? Regardless of Fantom or other hardware... I thought installing the EXZ packs in hardware always required the purchase of a Lifetime Key.

Re: FRAUD: DON'T BUY EXPANSIONS IN ROLAND CLOUD!!

8 Apr 2022, 16:41

anotherscott wrote:

Foksadure wrote:

The good news is that all the EXZ packs are free for Fantom-0 owners, just like they are for the Fantom-2019.

Are you sure they're free? Regardless of Fantom or other hardware... I thought installing the EXZ packs in hardware always required the purchase of a Lifetime Key.

They're certainly advertised as free in some of the stuff Roland has put out, and although I don't have the board to test them in I have managed to download at least one from Roland Cloud without having to purchase anything.

Re: FRAUD: DON'T BUY EXPANSIONS IN ROLAND CLOUD!!

8 Apr 2022, 18:18

Lazerlike42 wrote:

anotherscott wrote:

Foksadure wrote:
The good news is that all the EXZ packs are free for Fantom-0 owners, just like they are for the Fantom-2019.
Are you sure they're free? Regardless of Fantom or other hardware... I thought installing the EXZ packs in hardware always required the purchase of a Lifetime Key.
They're certainly advertised as free in some of the stuff Roland has put out, and although I don't have the board to test them in I have managed to download at least one from Roland Cloud without having to purchase anything.

Hi, friends! Brian from Roland Cloud here. Below is a list of all of the content available for free for FANTOM-0 owners inside of Roland Cloud Manager.

SuperNATURAL:
SuperNATURAL Acoustic Piano 1
SuperNATURAL Electric Piano 1
SuperNATURAL Acoustic Piano 2

EXZs:
EXZ001 Stage Piano 1
EXZ002 Stage Piano 2
EXZ003 Session Drums
EXZ004 Power Drums
EXZ005 Studio Sounds
EXZ006 World Instruments
EXZ007 Orchestra
EXZ008 Vintage Keys
EXZ009 Symphonique Strings
EXZ010 Big Brass Ensemble
EXZ011 Classic EPs
EXZ012 Dance Trax
EXZ013 Concert Grand Piano
EXZ014 Complete Piano
EXZ015 Vintage Synth

SDZs:
SDZ004 Hyperwave
SDZ006 Lo-Fi Beats
SDZ021 New Romantic
SDZ027 Nu Sunset
SDZ034 Analog Bass
SDZ040 Analog Polysynths
SDZ046 Vocal Injections
SDZ048 LA Synths
SDZ080 World Instruments 2

Enjoy! Thanks 😊

Re: FRAUD: DON'T BUY EXPANSIONS IN ROLAND CLOUD!!

11 Apr 2022, 19:13

BrianMcClelland wrote:

Hi, friends! Brian from Roland Cloud here. Below is a list of all of the content available for free for FANTOM-0 owners inside of Roland Cloud Manager.

Interesting! To put one of those EXZ expansions into the AX-Edge, you have to buy a $20 lifetime key. Is there anywhere you can point me to on the Roland site that says what (if anything) these expansions cost, depending on what model you have (Fantoms, AX-Edge, Jupiter X/Xm, RD88)? Also, if I download an expansion for free into the Fantom, I assume I'd still have to pay the $20 of I also wanted to download it into my AX-Edge? i.e. the fact that the Cloud may "know" that I have the Fantom doesn't change the cost for putting something into the Edge?

Re: FRAUD: DON'T BUY EXPANSIONS IN ROLAND CLOUD!!

12 Apr 2022, 18:59

anotherscott wrote:

BrianMcClelland wrote:
Hi, friends! Brian from Roland Cloud here. Below is a list of all of the content available for free for FANTOM-0 owners inside of Roland Cloud Manager.
Interesting! To put one of those EXZ expansions into the AX-Edge, you have to buy a $20 lifetime key. Is there anywhere you can point me to on the Roland site that says what (if anything) these expansions cost, depending on what model you have (Fantoms, AX-Edge, Jupiter X/Xm, RD88)? Also, if I download an expansion for free into the Fantom, I assume I'd still have to pay the $20 of I also wanted to download it into my AX-Edge? i.e. the fact that the Cloud may "know" that I have the Fantom doesn't change the cost for putting something into the Edge?

Hi, anotherscott! Yes. In Roland Cloud Manager, you can click on the hardware section in the left column, then scroll along the top row to find your hardware. Click on the name of any of the hardware in the top row to see a list of Model Expansions, EXZ Wave Expansion Packs, SDZ Sound Packs that are compatible with each device. From there, click on any title to see the product page, which will have the price for the Lifetime Key in the top right corner.

Any title that has a "Get Lifetime Key" button will require a purchase before use. Anything that says "...For FANTOM-0" will be formatted specifically for your FANTOM-0 and free to use. Thanks! 😊

Re: FRAUD: DON'T BUY EXPANSIONS IN ROLAND CLOUD!!

30 Apr 2022, 09:23

On the other hand, I agree with you that it's a but lousy for the policy to be this way and to prevent customers from transferring these various instrument downloads.

That having been said, it's actually not that unusual a policy, especially in the music industry.

Below are a couple of examples how reputable music or media companies are handling license transfers. Compare this to the dubious Roland policy before you defend it. I will definitely stop buying their overpriced cloud stuff if they don't establish a solution to this. If you guys have enough money to waste, fine for you. I don't.

https://www.ikmultimedia.com/faq/index.php?id=44&bu=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWttdWx0aW1lZGlhLmNvbS9mYXEvaW5kZXgucGhwP3NlYXJjaD1saWNlbnNlJTIwdHJhbnNmZXI=

https://helpx.adobe.com/x-productkb/policy-pricing/transfer-product-license.html

https://support.native-instruments.com/hc/en-us/articles/210288845-Buying-or-Selling-a-Native-Instruments-Product-Second-Hand

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/reselling-a-transferred-license-arturia.111653/

And so on and so forth... I could continue with this list because hardly any company acts so brazenly as Roland. They don't even allow you to de-activate hardware like the WC1 wireless stick in order to sell it. Now, how do you defend this?