XV-5080

Arent those 5080 already all?

I can't speak for the new Fantom, but in the FA06/FA07/FA08 the base sounds of the XV are preloaded in the bank of "PCM" sounds, and you can load the contents of two more of any of the SRX expansion cards which were made available for the XV (these become additional "PCM" sounds on the FA).

The XV-5080 must be the most recycled synth ever. 20 years after its release, Roland still finds a way to recycle it. Don't get me wrong. I love some of the 5080 sounds.

Loopman wrote:

Hello, I have a question : is there a way to load all the XV-5080 (or the JD-990) sounds into the new Fantom?

From what I"ve read, all the XV-5080 sounds are already in the Fantom, in Bank E. Or at least about 900 of them. Were there more than that in the XV-5080?

Here Are the specs of Preset Tone List of New Fantom

-Bank A 239 original Fantom new Sounds
-Bank B the first 459 tones of AX-Edge
-Bank C 128 patches from Synth Legends Expansion of Integra-7
-Bank D All 1109 SuperNatural Synth Tones from Integra-7 and "old" FA synth
-Bank E ALL the 896 patches of XV-5080 BANKS ABCDFG (The H Bank, the GM2 Group with 256 patches, is not present)
-Bank CMN the other 837 tones of AX-Edge (from 460 to 1296)

PR-A 239
PR-B 459
PR-C 128
PR-D 1109
PR-E 896
CMN 837
TOTAL 3668

You cannot exactly load any "sounds" into the Fantom currently. You can import and export presets that you create based on the current synth and limited sample library (around 2k mono samples, grouped by instrument and velocity layer and split into 4 banks). The patches ("Tones") that come with the unit are just making use of these samples and the VA.

I know a lot has been made about wanting "supernatural" acoustic sounds but the sounds themselves are just the samples that are as far as I can tell mostly already included and the inbuilt controls in z-core does allow you to build quite a lot of the smart behavioral stuff. Take some time to familiarize yourself with the legato controls in particular (mono synth mode only), the portamento and pitch envelopes should get you a lot of the way there if that's what you're missing.

As a long-time user of an XV-5050, I would not have been able to replace it with a new FA-07 unless all the sounds from the old SRX-07 card in my XV-5050 would also have been in the FA-07. I would would be dead without having the sounds from the SRX-07 in my FA-07.

Per wrote:

I know a lot has been made about wanting "supernatural" acoustic sounds but the sounds themselves are just the samples that are as far as I can tell mostly already included and the inbuilt controls in z-core does allow you to build quite a lot of the smart behavioral stuff. Take some time to familiarize yourself with the legato controls in particular (mono synth mode only), the portamento and pitch envelopes should get you a lot of the way there if that's what you're missing.

SuperNatural Acoustic is a lot more than that. The basic sounds are more than just straight samples, see https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpost.php?p=14272187&postcount=1578 - and even to the extent that it does include articulations that vary based on how you play, it is a lot more than whether you play legato or not (which is something tons of synths can do), it takes into account other things, like the distance between one note played and the next; and the things it can do based on how you play are quite sophisticated. An example is provided in post 3006971 at http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3006971/ - Or when you do a pitch bend, it "knows" when/whether the instrument can actually slide between the notes vs. articulating a series of notes between the start and end points (check out the bend at the 15 second point at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsUvk_fcMCE )

harmonizer wrote:

As a long-time user of an XV-5050, I would not have been able to replace it with a new FA-07 unless all the sounds from the old SRX-07 card in my XV-5050 would also have been in the FA-07. I would would be dead without having the sounds from the SRX-07 in my FA-07.

Yeah, as of now, you would not be able to get those sounds. I don't know whether or not there is a way to load in XV-5080 programs, but you definitely cannot load in new keyboard-playable multisampled wave data, which is what the JV and SRX cards relied on.

Bumping this thread because of my interest in the Roland Jupiter Xm. I thought of getting an FA, but it looks like the FA is a grandchild of the XV-5080, and I am guessing Jupiter derives some of its sounds also from the XV-5080, right?

anotherscott wrote:

harmonizer wrote:

As a long-time user of an XV-5050, I would not have been able to replace it with a new FA-07 unless all the sounds from the old SRX-07 card in my XV-5050 would also have been in the FA-07. I would would be dead without having the sounds from the SRX-07 in my FA-07.

Yeah, as of now, you would not be able to get those sounds. I don't know whether or not there is a way to load in XV-5080 programs, but you definitely cannot load in new keyboard-playable multisampled wave data, which is what the JV and SRX cards relied on.

Hmmm, I'm not sure what I was thinking when I wrote that, I think I mis-read the question in the context of the Fantom (the topic/category of the thread in general) instead of the FA. You've long been able to add most of the SRX-07 sound set into the FA, it's the free axial EXP-02 download. It was the Fantom you couldn't get those sounds for... but now those sounds are available for Fantom as well, via Zenology.

TheSuperNova wrote:

Bumping this thread because of my interest in the Roland Jupiter Xm. I thought of getting an FA, but it looks like the FA is a grandchild of the XV-5080, and I am guessing Jupiter derives some of its sounds also from the XV-5080, right?

Yes, the Jupiter X/Xm also include the XV-5080 sound set. It is one of the selectable model banks.

Bumping the SuperNatural aspect of the XV-5080->Fantom discussion aside...

The Fantom cannot do exactly do the same tones, even with the PCM base, as it was up to the FA series.

Zen-Core, while similar in structure, is missing the Tone Structures of everything before it. This is baffling as the tone structures have all the same components of two tones per structure, each tone having OSC, TVF, TVA...but Zen-Core just dropped a lot of the flexibility of everything up to the new Fantom. Perhaps the new RING, XMOD, and XMOD2 can achieve similar results but forget trying to recreate your favorite patches 1 for 1 on the Fantom.

Here's what I mean: Fantom has a "None" structure (let's call it straight-through: OSC->TVF->TVA) and the previous 20 year generations had "Structure 1." Zen-Core offers more than the previous synths in this structure.

However, if you then study the tone structures of the past synths (FA Series, Page 47), you'll see a big departure in tone structure flexibility from Zen-Core in that Zen-Core's next closest structure to the past is Ring, which is close, but not exactly, Structure 8. And, it's backwards from the past in Zen-Core. Where Ring in the Fantom is Partial 1 OSC->Ring->HPF->EQ->VCF->VCA, in the past Partial 2 was directly pumped into the Ring Modulator...so, this makes it hard for me to translate past patches just in that swap-er-roo alone. But still, Zen-Core while being a little more flexible at least, in this case, is missing all the other Structure of the past where maybe you want to have a VCF before the RM on both partials (Structure 9 & 10 of FA, and older JV/XV/Fantoms)...can't do it with the new Fantom.

If you have Roland Cloud XV-5080 and a Fantom, take a look at the patch "Black Widow." On the plugin it is PR-B:006, on the Fantom it is PR-E:0134.

Go into the plugin editor of the XV-5080 and select the Structure button. You'll see it uses Structure 10. Look at the Fantom, it uses Structure None. They sound similar. Now, turn off partials 3 & 4 on both and you can hear the real difference of the tone structures. The plugin degrades very nicely where the Fantom's filter simply rolls off.

And this patch? It's lazy programming on the Fantom - it could sound closer to the 5080. If you change the structure on the Fantom for Partial 1&2 to RING, and you have RING OSC Level at 127 for Partial 1, you hear that nice degradation like Stucture 10 of the plugin. In fact, it sounds even better with RING OSC Level 0 on the Fantom. But, you cannot achieve a 1 to 1 recreation on the Fantom because Structure 10 has a TVF before the Ring Mod on both partials.

And - there is no booster structure whatsoever in Fantom. Now, this may be moot with XMOD2...but it's not quite the same experience as the past.

The baffling part is that this is simply software...they could add these legacy structures.

There's one particular patch, not a stock JV-1080 patch, called "TB Ring 303" I found way back in the 90s. It's a really warm, distorted, Ring Mod effected patch that is particularly yummy. I recreated this patch in the Roland Cloud version of the JV-1080...and it's not quite as good as the hardware. Here's too...the parameter values do not match the hardware so it's always a guess if you've matched the parameters correctly. When I got my Fantom, I tried recreating this patch (this is where I discovered the missing stuctures) and even using the RING structure, it lacks that warmth and dynamic response of both the JV-1080 hardware, and plugin. This is a shame, Roland!

What made the JV/XV not just a "Rompler" was these flexible modulations...it wasn't just PCMs filtered and LFO'd...they were real synths. Zen-Core looses this soul. It has a soul of its own, sure, but this is just software now! Roland could include these, I would think.

I'm glad that I still have my JV 2080.
Time to unpack it and place it next my Fantom.

EdGe, you truly know your stuff. I remember when the Fantom came out, people liked the analogue filters of the VA. I am guessing this is because of the resolution (1024 instead of 128).

Now I have a question for you. The FA is probably the last child of the Supernatural era before the change to ZenCore, so if that's the case, where do you think I should go? I never understood that there were some differences between the hardware and the software until you mentioned them, and maybe these are fringe cases for me, I am not too sure. I just thought having an Xm would get me a plethora of sounds but also allow me to study the synth and understand why this filter is better than that filter (at least get me started to understand).

I like what the Xm is doing, but I don't mind stepping back to the Supernatural era and getting an FA.

What do you think?

After everything I wrote, I still wouldn't take a Jupiter X/Xm, Fantom G, FA, or any older JV/VX over the current Fantom. And, although I've had my 1080 since 1998, I've never been inspired by it to program synth sounds. I love the sound but the interface is difficult, and any patch editing software leaves me wanting more immediacy. It's only this new Fantom that got my attention with Zen-Core, tactile controllers for the main synth parameters, touch screen where I am inspired to "synthesize" on a Roland. Boy, did I pine for a JX3P when they came out in the mid-80s!

In fact, it was the release of the JX3P in Roland Cloud that sucked me in. Eventually, Zen-Core arrived and I dismissed it as the new face of the JV/XV heritage...but it's not...it's a lot more. I just hope Roland expands its capabilities with the older structures.

I know the feeling though: you want every option available. I wouldn't sweat not having Supernatural on the Xm...you have the JD800 now, the Fantom doesn't! ;) I suppose though, if you are fully invested, and have used Roland synths with Supernatural, you would feel a bit at a loss, especially if you have past productions you want to resume or restore.

The new Fantom does incorporate the Supernatural sounds...and to me, all Supernatural is preset keyswitched tones. Preceding SN in the JV/XV line, you may find there are a series of similarly name waves like "String 1", "String 2", and perhaps even a "String 3" in the lists which are controlled by the "PMT" (Partial Mix Table - I believe it's called). They're meant to be played with velocity switching over three different partials, so you get more nuance from the tone. I think the downside to SN is the lack of editing - you can't really change anything about how a SN patch plays...depending on the instrument, you may get a choice of the articulation (like the strings) and on the pianos and EPs, you can only change the MFX...and you can't use bits of SN in Zen-Core patches. So, SN is nice, but to me, not the essence of synthesis. If there's more to SN than I mention, this is because my knowledge comes only from what is available in the new Fantom. I've never used an Integra but I understand there was a synth element to SN where the new Fantom is offering acoustic instruments only.

I never considered the X/Xm over the Fantom. The X/Xm is too limited for my use. Only five parts/zones?. I also incorporate custome samples which I don't believe the Jup-X/Xm can do. I play in a couple of covers bands and need all the flexibility of the the Fantom, and I want it to become my main controller in the studio as well.

Another reason why I chose the new Fantom over anything else (even Yamaha or Korg), was the Zen-Core technology. For all my complaining about it in a previous post (and elsewhere), I have to say it sounds quite nice. I love being able to mix PCM, VA, or samples in one tone. The filters of the VA are quite nice too. The model expansions really add a unique sound to the Fantom, never before heard.

For me, getting anything older would have been a waste of money as they're no longer being developed or expanded. For all its faults, the way forward is Zen-Core. And, even though the Xm doesn't have SN, unless you depend specifically on some SN patches, I think there's enough that's current (Zen-Core) and from the past (expansions) that the bridge covers the gap.

If you need SN because you've had previous SN synths and know it well, then the FAs are relatively inexpensive, and can more faithfully replicate XV-5080 patches. The FA also has SN Synth (I just read the parameter guide) but its parameters are not as full-featured as Zen-Core.