JP80 - hugely disappointed with it. - JUPITER-80

Re: JP80 - hugely disappointed with it.

9 Mar 2013, 13:25

Hey guys I watched that video and that is a safe comparison. The sounds are close but when you start getting other things that affect the sound like cross modulation, PWM, longer releases, VCF filter characteristics, etc. combined together the character of the sounds change dramatically and you would hear much more differences between the two. I have been emulating some of my classics Rolands (Juno-106/Juno-60 and JX-3p) on the V-synth and can get in the ball park just as the person on the video. When synth legends Vol I cameout I was a bit dissapointed because we could program all that analog sound stuff already and come just as close. When I had an XP-30 w/the vintage synth card installed I could create close simulations too. Alot of the sounds I programmed on the Juno-106 are harder to recreate closeley because the juno can do funky thinks with the resonance and filter, and PWM a kind of worble where the sound kind of transforms anyone know what I'm talking about? Also with all of my VA synths (I have used an Ion, microKorg, SH-201, JP-8000, Gaia and my VSynth)every one of them when I program certain sounds with a longer release and repeatedy play the same key get a kind of flanging phasing effect that I do not get with my older polysynths. The sound that comes out of the VAs sounds like when you have a sample playing over itself. Anyone else have an idea what Iamtrying to explain here? In a mix I can get away with it to a degree but itis not welcomed for me. No I am not an analog snob, I do like bot digital and analog and my gear is about equally divided between analog gear and digital gear. These are some of the differences I have noted as a synthesist over the years.

Re: JP80 - hugely disappointed with it.

9 Mar 2013, 15:36

To me, those differences ARE what makes things even more interesting. Music is about sound, and the myriads of ways that those 12 notes can be arranged with whatever sound is being produced to create a cohesive whole that is pleasing to one's ears. Yet another example of the variety and multitudinous colours (yes, I see and hear colours in music) available to the musician, whatever their chosen instrument, be it a 1959 Les Paul, a Steinway Grand, a Moog, Prophet or a ukulele!

Why get caught up arguing over and discussing the minutiae of the sound elements themselves when it is the final product that counts? A chap on KF made the comment that digital synth's were essentially fake instruments because all they did was basically produce 0's and 1's as sound. Sure doesn't "sound" like 0's and 1's coming out of my Jupiter-80 to me! Anyway, this other blokes thoughtful and insightful reply made my highlight reel of the day:

Let's start from a rudimentary point. This may seem really stupid but if I can touch it, trigger it, manipulate, cause it to react to my input, then it's real. To me that means that my old DX7 is "real"......just as real as a Steinway at the area conservatory. Let's get contemporary. That makes my Fantom or my Triton just as real as my 77 Les Paul Standard, or my Selmer Super Action 80 alto sax. Break it down a bit further.........

A Bosendorfer Grand is constructed from choice woods, very expensive, very expensive metallurgy in the construction of the soundboard/bridge work not to mention the exactness required to construct the perfect "action" for the piano. That point at which we, "the triggers" make connection to the instrument yielding a sound; creating music. Can you tell me how a "fake instrument" (your words) like a synthesizer, keyboard, workstation.......whatever-how is it any different than that Bosendorfer? Both are tools for musical creation. In calling these fake instruments, maybe you are forgetting that the same skill set, the technical ability is required to make music on either instrument......there is no difference.

And...........if these are "fake instruments" as to implicate that they are of lesser value than perhaps a 20 ft Steinway or a 60's era Hammond B3 or even that L5 Gibson guitar or a new era Collings archtop. Why is it then that musicians/artist whether studio or live are in constant search of finding original Moog minis or Prophets (David Smith has rebadged and is reselling his improved version of the Prophet 8 and other incarnations of his classic synths), Mono Korgs, Roland Juno 60's (with midi upgrades) Monetarily speaking, I remember the original CMI Fairlight Sampler was in excess of $25.000.00 dollars a pop in the 80's. Every reputable synth driven artist of the 80's fought to get access to the Fairlight.......(until Stevie Wonder laid hands upon one of the first Kurzweil K150/250 series synths. Why are these instruments being sought out by some of the greatest artisans to date if they aren't real? If they aren't viable? If they aren't relevant? They are extremely valuable tools; veritable colors in palette used to create one of the most diverse, complex forms of communication known to man........music.

Come to the 21st century. I've amassed over the years a very large collections wind instruments (was a woodwind major in college), guitars and basses and keyboards and synths.........from Rhodes to Wurlitzers to various brands and types of synths. Look at the parity.......my XP-80 has a distinctly different flavor than my Triton.......even using very similar patches. The Korg tends to have a thicker, richer tone beyond a particular patch than does the XP. The XP seems to deliver a thinner, more exact, higher resolution of sound (if you will) than the Korg. Neither better than the other in my oppinion, just different and those differences are paramount in creating, performing music.

All valuable tools, irregardless of price in the production of music. Further, just my opinion..........any synth, keyboard player, pianist etc. that can discount the potential worth of any synth or workstation built in the last 30 years gives me cause to wonder about his/her value as musician ........period!

Bloody brilliant mate! My sentiments exactly, and I hear the same differences as he between the "Korg Sound" and the "Roland Sound" which is why I have both in my sonic arsenal.

Re: JP80 - hugely disappointed with it.

9 Mar 2013, 15:57

+1 Exactly!

I enjoy the mix of sounds be it analog/digital/acoustic/Roland/Korg/whatever. Ultimately (for me) the creativity is in how the sounds are used, and what music comes from that creativity.

Whether there is 1 VCO or 10 of them is of no matter to the creativity of music. Looking at the tools in detail overlooks and misses the point of music!

A cello has only 4 oscillators (strings) and very rarely can all 4 sound at the same time (eg when they are stopped/pressed). But play one note on one string with the right speed of vibrato that fades in and out, then comes musical magic.

And that is what I look for in my boards - play one note and hear the magic (and can I edit it simply if I want to). Don't give two hoots about the technology that derived the sound.

Re: JP80 - hugely disappointed with it.

9 Mar 2013, 16:42

Personally I find alot of my music inspiration through the love of the technological side of things (I know, Geek! Alert!) The timbres I create with my synths really do inspire me to write music. That is what is so great about programmable synths is to unlock the full potential of the synth based on the synthesis available weather it is analog, digital or both. For me I ended up selling most of the VAs I owned(microKorg, Gaia, Ion, JP-8000 and the SH-201. As far as VAs go I now only have my V-Synth and it serves that purpose very well and for the ability to warp samples into new things. in the past year I have ended up adding a D-50 and a DX-7 to my set-up because I wanted different colors in my sound palette. I already had a D-5 which was the first digital synth I started on and programmed many of my own songs. The D-50 of course sounds very similar but the architecture and the added FX give it some different character.

Re: JP80 - hugely disappointed with it.

9 Mar 2013, 21:46

Just curious Tron. What genre of music do you mostly enjoy to produce? You and Synthguy seem to prefer the analog sounds of yesteryear, and I'm not knocking it. In fact I grew up listening to it! I even enjoy hearing Farfisa's for crying out loud!

I didn't start playing guitar until I was in my 20's, and even though I enjoyed all of the keyboard greats in the Rock bands I listened to, I didn't get the electronic music bug until the early 90's after being blown away by a home recording tape made by this chap with Drum Machine, D-50 and a D-70.

So there I was, purchasing a Roland Sound Canvas and trying my best to understand MIDI and making rudimentary multi-track recordings on an old Tascam. Good thing I recorded all of that stuff for posterity. They don't sound very good, but it is fun to go back and hear what out and out motivation can do for someone with absolutely no keyboard chops and no prior experience.

I still don't have any keyboard chops to speak of, but at least I do understand a bit more about MIDI! Just for fun, here is a link to a tribute I did for a very popular 70's Rock act. I know, it may not sound exactly like the real deal analogs, but it was a good bit of jolly fun to do, even if I had to use digitals!

http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=9153034

Re: JP80 - hugely disappointed with it.

10 Mar 2013, 07:58

I have to agree with the OP on some of his points but I understand that most issues are very subjective.
It´s not possible to do it right for everyone so I am trying to get used to some "quirks" others would call "flexible features".

My mature grief is the MIDI Implementation in Registration Mode:

Regardless of the splits or activated parts I want the JP to send the notes on ONE Midi Channel.
I want to record the notes of this Midi Channel to ONE track on my hardware sequencer.
When I play back the track I want the JP to respond to the notes according to their note value and associate them to the appropriate split parts.

The way it works now:
The JP sends and receives notes on FOUR Midi Channels. When I record this and play the track back I have lots of issues with missing notes or notes being played double when I merge the MIDI Channels.

It´s hard for me to describe in english. Perhaps some people understand what I mean. I think it´s technically a small problem.
I found some workarounds due to the help of some people here in the forum when working with a DAW sequencer (Logic).

But the implementation just does not feel natural to me, annoys me a lot and is the main reason that I don´t use the JP as much as I would like.
The reason I am writing this is not to bash, but to activate some people who have the same problems.
If some share the same problem perhaps Roland would act and fix it.
Even better, there is nothing to fix and you guys tell me how to do it right ...

Re: JP80 - hugely disappointed with it.

10 Mar 2013, 10:16

SoundworldA.D. wrote:
Just curious Tron. What genre of music do you mostly enjoy to produce? You and Synthguy seem to prefer the analog sounds of yesteryear, and I'm not knocking it. In fact I grew up listening to it! I even enjoy hearing Farfisa's for crying out loud!

I didn't start playing guitar until I was in my 20's, and even though I enjoyed all of the keyboard greats in the Rock bands I listened to, I didn't get the electronic music bug until the early 90's after being blown away by a home recording tape made by this chap with Drum Machine, D-50 and a D-70.

So there I was, purchasing a Roland Sound Canvas and trying my best to understand MIDI and making rudimentary multi-track recordings on an old Tascam. Good thing I recorded all of that stuff for posterity. They don't sound very good, but it is fun to go back and hear what out and out motivation can do for someone with absolutely no keyboard chops and no prior experience.

I still don't have any keyboard chops to speak of, but at least I do understand a bit more about MIDI! Just for fun, here is a link to a tribute I did for a very popular 70's Rock act. I know, it may not sound exactly like the real deal analogs, but it was a good bit of jolly fun to do, even if I had to use digitals!

http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=9153034

Hey,
I guess I mainly like to write music that is dance/rock influenced and sometimes i like to write more on the lines of mood music with a bit of classical. I actually started playing drums first as a child (I was influenced by Peter Criss of KISS) and got into keyboards when I was 13. But did not really know anything about synthesizers and elctronic music until I started using an Ensoniq Mirage at a vocational school I went to which has been 25 years ago now, wow!. I soon got my first synth which was a Juno-106 which actually I did not know anything about but I saw it said Roland and that is what my favorite band Duran Duran was using primarily. I cannot help but remember the huge ROLAND logo emblazoned on the synth Nick Rhodes was playing in the Reflex video, which was the Jupiter-8.
I have been in a few bands but nothing really on going.
Back in 1997-1999 I was composing music freelance for TV spots and ads for a local TV Station in Norfolk, Va, Gecko Productions, Kimnach Ford and Fox 4 in Texas from a contact I knew that moved to Texas. I still have copies of these but unfortunately they are on Tape (digital betacam) that is what they were all still using at the time and I do not have access to a player to play them now. :(
Overall I write music for myself and write what I enjoy I guess it is somewhat therapeutic for me to mess around with synths and scratch out a few pieces and songs.
Below are links to some of my material. I would like to check yours out too!

http://www.reverbnation.com/synthtron
Also more music clips at:
http://www.reverbnation.com/synthos

Re: JP80 - hugely disappointed with it.

10 Mar 2013, 11:55

Thanks for the links Tron. Absolutely loved that bass line on GI-GO and the distorted rhythm guitar on Deep Scars rocks! You did a great job at capturing that 80's energy! I am more a child of the 60's and 70's, and that is and will forever remain my favourite music, but as I got older and expanded my musical horizons came to appreciate more and more types and genre's of music.

Reflex! I just love that video! I still get such a kick from "Hungry like the Wolf, Rio" and others like the Police's "Syncronicity" and Dire Straits "Money for Nothing." I remember fondly the buzz created by that lovely pencil animation on A-Ha' s "Take On Me" and Thomas Dolby's superb "Blinded By Science" like it was yesterday. "You're beautiful Miss Sakamoto!"

I was highly influenced by the music I heard on MTV (yeah...it was still MUSIC television back then!!!! LOL) and probably never would have heard of some of my fave 80's bands like Duran Duran, Level 42,Tears For Fears, Simple Minds, Talk Talk, Cutting Crew, Crowded House, Bourgeois Tagg, Go West and so many others if not for that medium.

Keep up the good work. I am now a fan.

The way it works now:
The JP sends and receives notes on FOUR Midi Channels. When I record this and play the track back I have lots of issues with missing notes or notes being played double when I merge the MIDI Channels.

@ solitud. Yes, the Registration to play correctly requires 4 MIDI channels becasue of the different layers involved. I also tried setting all of the "parts" to the same MIDI channel but found that the Registration did not sound the same as when I played it locally. Have you tried setting the Remote Keyboard Switch to ON. I have mine set up as CH1: Lower, CH2: Upper, CH3: Solo and CH4: Perc with the Registration Control Channel set to CH 1. When am playing and recording the Jupiter-80 from the OASYS (which is my master controller) I noticed that the Registration will not sound correctly with the Arpeggiator and all unless I turn the RKS to ON.

Best regards,
.:':.DH.:':.

Re: JP80 - hugely disappointed with it.

10 Mar 2013, 12:35

SoundworldA.D. wrote:
my fave 80's bands like Duran Duran, Level 42,Tears For Fears, Simple Minds, Talk Talk, Cutting Crew, Crowded House, Bourgeois Tagg, Go West and so many others

A man after my own heart :-)

Don't forget: Midnight Oil, Nitzer Ebb, Killing Joke, Kraftwerk, Devo, Mister Mister,
.... though perhaps a bit more late 70's for some !!

MM.

Re: JP80 - hugely disappointed with it.

10 Mar 2013, 13:22

SoundworldA.D. wrote:
Thanks for the links Tron. Absolutely loved that bass line on GI-GO and the distorted rhythm guitar on Deep Scars rocks! You did a great job at capturing that 80's energy! I am more a child of the 60's and 70's, and that is and will forever remain my favourite music, but as I got older and expanded my musical horizons came to appreciate more and more types and genre's of music.

Reflex! I just love that video! I still get such a kick from "Hungry like the Wolf, Rio" and others like the Police's "Syncronicity" and Dire Straits "Money for Nothing." I remember fondly the buzz created by that lovely pencil animation on A-Ha' s "Take On Me" and Thomas Dolby's superb "Blinded By Science" like it was yesterday. "You're beautiful Miss Sakamoto!"

I was highly influenced by the music I heard on MTV (yeah...it was still MUSIC television back then!!!! LOL) and probably never would have heard of some of my fave 80's bands like Duran Duran, Level 42,Tears For Fears, Simple Minds, Talk Talk, Cutting Crew, Crowded House, Bourgeois Tagg, Go West and so many others if not for that medium.

Keep up the good work. I am now a fan.

Hey,
Thanks!
The bass lines on GIGO and Deep Scars were done on my Juno-106. The Fantom X-6 did the guitar work.
My work flow has typically been using discreet synths. The Fantom is the only "workstation" I have and want. I either use the sequencer on it or my MMT-8. The MMT-8 was my first sequencer and I wore that thing outand was fortunate to find a replacement on eBay that came with the original box paper work and was really likenew.Most of the music I have written was on the MMT-8 and I dump the data to a Datadisk. My Fantom went died on me within the first year of purchase, thankfully it was still under warranty and Roland replaced the main board for me and no problems since. That incident reminded me of my original idea of using seperate pieces connected via MIDI so if one dies I can still write as i get it repaired or replaced.

I was checking out your music and like the variety of what you have up ranging from jazz sounding to new age sounding stuff. I listened to a couple of the tribute pieces, cool stuff!

Re: JP80 - hugely disappointed with it.

10 Mar 2013, 14:04

Thanks Tron. Always good to see others work flow in relation to the gear and setups. I was wondering about where that guitar sound came from. Funny that I still have all of my guitars, stompers and amps buut I'm too lazy to hook it all up and record it! Besides, the V-Synth GT can get some pretty smokin' hot chord crushers and leads.

A man after my own heart :-)

Don't forget: Midnight Oil, Nitzer Ebb, Killing Joke, Kraftwerk, Devo, Mister Mister,
.... though perhaps a bit more late 70's for some !!

Gads Marty! I could have went on for much longer if my memory was any better! LOL Yes, that so cool echo-plexxed guitar on Killing Jokes' "Sanity" is still a fave, and lo and behold, Mister Mister was also a big fave and their drummer went on to be part of yet another classic King Crimson lineup. "Broken Wings" and "Kyrie" still do it for me till this day. I also really liked that Ozy band ICEHOUSE, especially the "Man of Colours" album. That line from Girl in the Moon, "and there's Batman and Robin leaking into my room through a hole in the wall" is just such a keeper!

I'll have to check out some of the others you mention that I haven't heard, but here are just a few of the acts that I really adored in the 80's:
Big Country
Dream Academy
The Eurythmics
The FIXX
Huey Lewis & The News
Human League
INXS
Kajagoogoo (what a name!)
Madness
Modern English
The Motels
Naked Eyes
Oingo Boingo
OMD (Orchestral Manoeuvres in the dark)
Pet Shop Boys
Prefab Sprout
Psychedelic Furs
Spandau Ballet
Trash Can Sinatras
Ultravox
Wall of Voodoo (Mexican Radio baby!)

Blimey! Let me go get out my I-pod with all of the 80's classics...I want my, I want my, I want my MTV! The 80's version with actual music only please!!!

"And he's up there, what's that? Hawaiian noises?
He's bangin' on the bongoes like a chimpanzee (Knopfler laughs!)
Oh that ain't workin' that's the way you do it
Get your money for nothin' get your chicks for free!" ;-D

Re: JP80 - hugely disappointed with it.

10 Mar 2013, 15:40

Ahh, The Fixx and Prefab ... classic ... "Steve Mcqueen" is such a great album.

I've worked with Nick Beggs from Kajagoogoo a few times, he's a superb player
and a real good laugh too :-)

Good times.

Marty.

Re: JP80 - hugely disappointed with it.

10 Mar 2013, 15:47

I am very fond of most of the bands listed!
Really love the Eurythmics, The Fixx, oh really all of those bands all have songs I really enjoy.
My Pandora has a station that is all 80's music that listen to frequently. I am also a huge fan of music from the 70''s with bands like Heart (Magic Man love the synth lead), Elton John, Ozark Mountain Daredevils (Jackie Blue, love the guitar), Fleetwood Mac, Billy Joel, The list goes on.
These two decades (70's and 80's) were a big influence on me musically.
Synthesizers and MIDI have enabled me to do what I could not do without them and that is to effeciently create music. I still use drums too and have them connected via MIDI so I can record my drumming performance if needed. This technology is awesome!

Re: JP80 - hugely disappointed with it.

10 Mar 2013, 16:28

Is this heaven?.... or what?... please somebody, change the name of the thread, it hurts my eyes! :D

Re: JP80 - hugely disappointed with it.

10 Mar 2013, 17:33

Well, we do seem to have gone VERY OT .... BUT some great posts have come up !!
/////Back to the 80's//// >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I've had the great pleasure of being the "MD" for "Alphaville" for a number of years, known
in the USA probably for the hits "Big in Japan" and "Forever young" - recently covered by Jay Z
and Mr Hudson, though he called it "Young Forever" which went down like a "turd in a swimming pool" with the publishers !!
There is great love for good, classic 80's songs, "pop" perhaps but they have more content & talent
under their finger nails, than any recent "pop" icon !

Marty.