Opinions CP1 vs. RD700GX w/SN expansion

pip- you bring a fun point to the discussion. i currently own the VPiano and Nord StageEX so im VERY EAGER to get my hands on the RD700GXF which is suppose to be delivered to me this week. (^_^)b

as far as piano sound alone, im a huge fan of the nord's C7 samples with the sympathetic piano (XLR version). it sounds fantastic when mixed with soft pads, etc. compared to the CP1's own yamaha piano samples, the CP1 didnt sound nearly as artistic or dynamic as the nord. nord has some very unique sampling techniques that pretty much blows away other sample based piano's... but

yes, there is always a but... when you play chromatic scales you can easily tell that these piano's are samples. on the VPiano every thing sounds more organic and natural. im happy with the VPiano as far as dynamics go as it is extremely sensitive to touch.... but

yes, there is a but to the VP as well... it doesnt have that much of a variety of piano sounds. yes there are a few models but the Vintage1 based model and silver are the only two that i really like. where as the RD700GXF offers many different piano's so im looking forward to that.

and as you mentioned, RD has much better master controller feature so should be a nice controller for my StageEX as well. as soon as the RD comes in im going to pop in my SRX12 in there as well.

shadowfax- im going to try the nord piano hopefully in the coming weeks. im not going to buy it since im happy with the stageex and not a nord-fanatic by any means.

nord has a werd (too emphasised) key-off resonance on their samples and i hope they fixed this by removing that resonance on the nord piano.
if so, that means i can maybe download and install in my stageex as well.

not related to your post, but as far as whirly and rhodes, i still think the nord is better than roland or yamaha for authenticity (especially the whirly), but if you wanted a roland EP tine based sound, the Fantom (SRX12 based) has some very nice sounds for tines. i can play my G8 for hours just EP's.

Kenchan, ow, that hurt about Kawai. Before I finish beating the dead horse, I will mention most people share your feeling (including me not long ago) w/o ever having played the MP. And again, I only rave about the acton. On sounds, I believe you were implying I think Yamaha's piano is way inferior to the RD; I don't. And if you take away the healthy serving of reverb that the RD's "expressive grand" powers up with, it suddenly isn't as expressive... just sayin.

Shadowfax, you may be right about the "out of the box" comment. I will admit, despite my repeated attempts to really get excited about programming, in general I only do it as a means to an end, and thus I am biased toward boards that are already sounding good. I might just suck at editing, but my belief is that you can't polish a turd when it comes to samples, no matter how many filters/EQs/effects you layer on. Lastly, relax, I pulled the Car Tun Syn thing out of my ass. No proof whatsoever; but I do find the RD action to be heavy, esp after several hours of playing. Best, V

vinnie- when i was a child my father bought me a brand new kawai upright and although it was a super generous gift, the piano had the typical kawai stiff-action and sound was kinda blah. i had this professional tuner 'fix' the upright to sound sharper and it did sound pretty good, but the stiff action was just not the thing for me. my father offered me to take the piano when i moved out from my parent's place decades ago, but i respectfully declined.

ive played with kawai EP's and their synths and they definitely brought back bad memories. i suppose as much as i hate kawai's, there must be people that absolutely luv them for some reason. otherwise they would've belly upped long time ago. i just do not understand kawai piano's. as far as uprights go, yamaha is far superior.

yamaha's CP1 is inferior to the RD as far as piano samples go. like i menitoned, nord knows how to sample yamaha piano's better than yamaha. and the funny is, nord's piano's are just layered samples, but they are more dynamic than CP1's semi-modeled piano's.

you will find me often playing C7 piano samples off my nord through my VPiano. it sounds so different from my VPiano's sounds that it's quite enjoyable to have this variety. i want to trigger the nord from my RD700GXF....which was suppose to be in my hands tomorrow. more delays on shipment, i heard this am. (T_T) booooooooooooooooooo~~~

The Kawai MP is the only board with real wooden keys, that may be why I love the action - somethin about a real woody that just can't be replaced with plastic (or so I've been told). Regarding the Roland piano sound, I confess I'm not sure I've heard the "SN" piano (only if the card was loaded into the RDs I have played in stores, etc). I have the SRX-02 Concert Grand in my Fantom - is the SN markedly better?

Acoustic-wise, I've never liked Japanese pianos - too bright. And after 10 years living in Europe, my love for European pianos was finalized. Even "B" companies like Petrof (new ones, not communist era), Seitler,or Bechstien sound much more musical to my ears than most Japanese makes. Having said that, if I was offered a good deal on a Yamaha CFIIIS I wouldn't hesitate to sell my wife's car to finance it.

vinnie- you are full of contradiction and fun to read.

the SRX02 is garbage compared to even the SRX11 or RD700's original sounds. I know because i have a SRX02 in my old fantom myself. hahaha. it sounded okay back in early 2000...

the SN piano then takes the SRX11 level to another huge level of refinement. it's not even a comparision with the SRX02...and comparing the SN piano to the SRX11 is unfair.

the Kawai is not the only one with wooden keys with simulated ivory...in fact the CP1 has it, RD700 has it, my G8 has it, and my VPiano also have wooden keys...but they all feel different. The VPiano's PHA3 with escapement is by far the most natural feel vs any digital piano's ive played so far (which is a lot of different digital piano's) including the kawai. and it's not just the keybed....the sound engine must reproduce accurately to the velocity inputs otherwise your ear tricks you in thinking it feels different.

Japanese acoustic piano's, especially yamaha, do sound bright especially the C4-C5 range can get pretty aggressive when played hard repetitively. im more of a fuller sounding steinway-sound fan so ive been choosing Roland's digital piano's but the nord's version of the C7 is really nice. i like to have that variety.

If you press down a Kawai MP8 key, you can see the surrounding keys are made of real wood. If you do the same on any of those other boards, you do not see real wood. You see either simulated wood made from plastic, or just white plastic. Perhaps there is wood underneath, but why would they hide it? The CP1 I have not seen in person, but I have seen the CP5 (which supposedly has the same action) and it did not appear or feel like it had wooden keys. Regarding Roland, nowhere do they mention wooden keys in the specs. If the RD had wooden keys it would weigh more. Do wooden keys really matter? If you're used to playing acoustic, IMO, absolutely. I agree about the statement that ultimately there is more to it than the action, which is why I have a MUSE Receptor loaded with Ivory Grand to go along with the Kawai MP8. Don't always have the energy to lug the 77lb board and MUSE to gigs, but I miss it when I dont...

>>>yamaha's CP1 is inferior to the RD as far as piano samples go

I see it has to be very subjective because not for me.

>>>the Kawai is not the only one with wooden keys with simulated ivory...in fact the CP1 has it, RD700 has it, my G8 has it,

I wish RD had wooden keys but it doesn't unfortunately as well as G8...
well, until next OS update at least.

I stand corrected on the CP1/CP5. Both use wood for key construction, at least where it is visible on the inner side of white keys. Totaly agree with all the comments about the SN expansion board smoking the Yamaha CP piano sound. Thanks for helping me decide the RD is the board of choice for an all in one solution; still no contenders. Yet I will sign out of this chat with one last thing.... for action, my pick is still the MP8, nothing here changed my mind on that!

kenchan
I'm sorry, but none of the Roland keyboards you mention have keys made of wood. They are all plastic. And the "Ivory feel", like Roland states is "a confortable and realistic moisture-absorbent material that prevents slipping..." . In fact, if I'm not mistaken, the only piano that Roland made with real wood keys was the RD-1000 back in the 80s.
Personally, I see no need for using wood on the keys of digital pianos. It's a waste of trees.

when you guys mentioned wooden keys i thought you were talking about the wood you can see when you press down a key. my G8 /VPiano has that also my CP1.

im not sure if the entire key is wood though... i'd have to take it apart to know for sure. hahaha.

delirium - the CP1 has nice rich piano sounds, but the way it is processed after it rings is a different story. the RD's supernatural piano's ring in a way similar to the VPiano where there's no audible loop. The CP's keys sound like there is a loop... (if there isn't a loop, then yamaha needed to add more variation in the sound so that it has more character).

the CP1's got great EP's far better than the RD... and i think for those looking for a serious digital piano with authentic dynamics, they should get the VPiano. For those looking more for EP type digital piano, CP1 would be ideal. The RD is like the best of both worlds but not fully committed to either one.

Yes, if you analyze the audio, you can clearly see the CP1 CFIII patch looping. You can hear it too. Yamaha has processed the decay to the point where it makes a better loop, but IMO degrades the sound of the decay.

CP1 CFIII patch analysis also reveals significant note stretching in the bass and treble. I can clearly hear the bass stretching. There also seems to be 4 or 5 velocity layers, with at least one of the layer switches audible. Just not at all what I expect from a flagship stage piano.

But I guess you buy the CP1 mainly for the EPs, and only secondarily for the APs.

I also am a huge hater of Yamaha sympathetic resonance effect - they should drop the "sym" and call it "pathetic resonance". A cruel joke really.

I was going to get an RD this weekend with all the sales and such, but wasn't blown away by the other sounds in there, particularly the only two lame pipe organs. I really expect more for $2.5k. With all the PC samplers and synths literally murdering DPs, are the glory days of dedicated music hardware drawing to a close? That HW manufacturers have something of a death grip on their samples, dribbling out tiny, decades old sets for sky high prices, isn't helping at all.

dewster - yah, on the CP1 sympathetic resonance is only functional when the damper is pressed. i kind of LOL'ed... i didn't find it awful by any means as it richens the sound quite a bit as it should, but i kind of assumed at this price point (and all the CP1 yipe), yamaha would offer sympathetic resonance without damper pedal as well (like how my StageEX does it even while sample based).

there is some good about CP1's sympathetic resonance when you do half-pedal or catching notes with the pedal. the key-off tone blends very well with how the damping cuts out and it sounds very realistic and smooth.

i guess if you compared the CP1 and the StageEX, the CP1 is a better machine as far as piano's and EP's. but the nord also has organ and synth...

another kind of low blow was that the CP1 has no damper pedal noise...
it comes with a 3 pedal box yet no damper noise... the soft and center pedals work as it should, but i dont get it... i would rather get a regular single pedal + damper noise than 3 pedals with no damper noise.

im wanting to try the new Nord Piano88 later on this month when it arrives the stores. im not going to buy it but just want to see if nord fixed their short release/too pronounced key-off tone, and how their half damper works.

my next board i get will be a new Rhodes Mk7 (active 88, no MIDI version).

Kenchan, I guess I should have been a bit more specific in my hatred - on our P120, and on the P155 I tried down at the Guitar Center, the sympathetic resonance is an absolutely fake sounding pseudo reverb sounding effect. Not sure what it sounds like on the latest CP series, but I for one won't be shelling out serious bucks in order to find out (once burned, twice shy).

To me, sympathetic resonance is at least 50% of the piano sound, and DP manufacturers shouldn't be trying to cut corners by half-assing it.

I saw a CP5 & 50 down at the GC, but couldn't for the life of me figure out how to work them - the interface is incredibly cryptic, even by Yamaha standards. Guess I'll have to print out the manual and take it with me next time.

dewster- i cant speak for the other yamaha keyboards you mentioned, but as far as the CP1's sympathetic resonance it's not all that fake sounding.

i suppose if i was to describe the sound the higher registers sound like a deep reverbing effect, but this can also be said on real grand piano's as well as my VPiano. actually sympathetic resonance (as you already know, im just saying for newbs) is one of the key elements that make digital piano's sound like real piano's. this is why straight sampled piano's sound so fake.

I think the CP5 and 50's are structured the same way as my CP1. the owner's manual is literally crap. it was written by tunnel vision engineers that are probably smart in their little world, but dumb at explaining themselves...you know, the types that cant score. lol jk

After fiddling around with my CP1 for about 30min or so, figured out how the thing works. on the left side it shows the Part1 (Piano) and Part2 (Piano or EP your choice) which light up green. Those are your sound generators (oscillators). if you press and hold for like 2seconds it takes you into the parameters. you can change the sympathetic damper resonance there along with the other parameters.

Audio flow chart:
if you follow the faint line from the green LED to the right, it runs through Preamp, Modulation, power amp (i think). Part1 and 2 merges at the Reverb block then goes into Master EQ, then it is routed to the outputs.

For the Preamp and other blocks, same thing...just hold the button for 2 seconds and it takes you into the parameters. if the LED for that block is not lit, it means it is in bypass. you can toggle on/off by hitting the buttons and just let go.

you can also assign the big all-thumb donky knobs just under the screen. this is very useful while editing the piano's. you press the Assign button for like 2 seconds and it asks you which block (the Part block or the pre-amp block or, modulation, etc). for this example hit the Piano block. then it asks which parameter? so you select the parameter by pushing down on the donky knob to select Damper Resonance. then it asks which donky knob to assign to? so you just select by pushing down on the donky knob of your choice and walla! you can now change the damper resonance on the fly from the screen.

there you go. i edit sound on all synths and EP's i buy so it might be easier for me to sort of figure out what the obasan is saying on the screen and in the owner's manual.

ask me if you want to know how to edit the VPiano cause i did many hours on that as well to make my ultimate concert grand. :p