Buying samples X6 and Where is the Real Music?

Hey Buminbeer2!

Someone help me understand as why I do it the hardway? sigh.

I've had to ask myself this very same question!

My answer? . . . The challenge! I enjoy trying to write and re-create all styles of music without having to 'borrow' technique in the form of looped clips or phrases from other musicians. Music has changed dramatically in recent years. With the advent of beat boxes, software like 'Band-In-A-Box, and arranger keyboards, the average person need only a rudimentary knowledge of music to be 'creative'! I have nothing against this. However, I do feel that technology, if allowed, can greatly hinder one's desire/need to strive for truly great musicianship and technical proficiency.

Rather than being tainted by a 'paint-by-number' approach to composition, this choice for 'challenge' has forced me to learn how to play instrument patches with the same technique that the actual instrumentalist would use, be it powerchords and pitch bend for guitar, bowing technique for strings, or subtle vibrato and measured breath control when playing an oboe!

I do not apologize for taking pride in this craft, as it has taken many years of my life to get to this point. However, the reward is knowing that I can do it, and I would not trade my efforts for all of the sample and loop libraries in the world!

My advice? . . . Just do it, and be happy that you can, for there are many more who can't! (or won't) =)

BTW. I own Artemiy's Megapack for the Fantom G and am very impressed with the new creative possibilities I can explore! Five Stars!

Cheers!
PiaKnowGuy
Please take a listen to - Pirates Done entirely on the X8!


PiaKnow

The loops you see for sale are not illegal, they are either original creations (mostly) or bought or licensed off old vinyl recordings (much less common). However, yes, pretty much anyone can buy them and make music by staking them together - but how original will the author be? To make something interesting you still need to have good skills and musical taste. Loops are big business nowadays, but the mass-produced music sounds very poorly for the main part. Creative use of a few loops, like chopping, breaking, processing, actually gives you great musical possibilities. So it depends on you, at the end.

My libraries that you mention are mainly instruments and kits that you play yourself, i.e. you come up with your own melodies and rhythms. And I (and many others here) would highly recommend them to you, because these are completely original sounds I made myself, and there will be only a few hundred sold and not hundreds of thousands - which allows you to sound special compared to an army of 15-year-olds which download pirated loops and software

Thanks Art and Piaknowguy, I feel better getting it off my chest. I 100% agree that I have had to learn to play instruments just like the real deal. Guitars and Bass players basically have only 4 fingers to deal with (sometimes thumb) so they can't play an 8 finger stomp like a piano player can. Mouth players have to breathe at some point or pass out, cannot sustain forever. I have taken a lot of pride in trying to sound as close to the real player as I can and always learning.

I just hate when people that don't play at all and hear my heavy sequenced songs (like Pirates which I love!) ask me, did the Keyboard do all the loops for you. I guess they think I just hit one button and magically music comes out. If they understood it sometimes takes an hour (or many more) to create just 12 bars, given it may contain 4-12 different instruments all doing something that sounds like a George Williams score. Most non-musicans could care less and get bored with something like Pirates, but I hear the talent it takes to create such a piece. I guess if it's not the latest fade like a hot Nickleback tune, they don't care.

Guess it will always be up to us true talented musicans that love a good Danny Elfman score or something like Pirates to understand each other. At least we know it's real music and not samples (for the most part). I'm not against loops by any means, after all a ton of Keyboard patches and tones are just that. A one bar drum pattern is just that. It is the people who do nothing original and basically string together a whole song of them.

Thanks and ordering the Mega-pack tomorrow, I'll soon be on your list Art I guess I'm just damn proud that I can string together 10-16 tracks of original music and call it mine, don't care what others think, but it hurts sometimes when it took me a week to create a complete 5 minute score and someone who can't play, calls it sissy music. Must swallow pride and remember they could not play mary had a little lamb if their life depending on it. Just like Spiderman, sometimes I feel the gift is a curse, hehe.

If you understand the history of sampling you might have more appreciation for it. That said, like anything else it can be done creatively or it can be done lazily. It is not fair to crap on the whole idea because some people half ass it. Just like anybody can line up some loops in fruity anyone can also learn 3 or 4 barre chords on the guitar and bang aways for three minutes. If you are not willing to call that music then you just "offed" punk in addition to hip hop and alot of electronic music. Pretty soon it will just be you and your grand piano in a corner. The point is, lighten up and forget about what the free world is doing..."do you" as they say.

have a nice day.

"If you understand the history of sampling you might have more appreciation for it. That said, like anything else it can be done creatively or it can be done lazily. It is not fair to crap on the whole idea because some people half ass it. Just like anybody can line up some loops in fruity anyone can also learn 3 or 4 barre chords on the guitar and bang aways for three minutes. If you are not willing to call that music then you just "offed" punk in addition to hip hop and alot of electronic music. Pretty soon it will just be you and your grand piano in a corner. The point is, lighten up and forget about what the free world is doing..."do you" as they say.

have a nice day. "

+1

I feel your frustration, buminbeer2 and this reminds me of an recurring argument i had in college when it was the Beatmakers vs. the Jazz vs. the Classical cats... but an alternative view of things is that The good people will be good in ANY genre of music and the terrible will be terrible... Sampling, Hip Hop, Electronic, trance, dance music has its place and a market and great music is great for a reason. every genre of music has classic material that will be appreciated for years and crap that will go by the wayside....

A professor told me once that BS might get you to the top, but it won't keep you there...

Hi Buminbeer2,

I can feel what you mean.

I know some guys who are into producing/deejaying hiphop and electronic (dance) music. I ever did 'help' them.

And know what ? They ask me for playing the keys (i.e. basslines, chords, melodies ) on their drumbeat.

They ask me to play the basslines etc. that they have in mind (they hum it for me, or even asked me if I can play a piano-loop like in one of their chosen samples). And later on with the credits they say that they produced and composed most of the song etc.

They say that they are the 'brains' and I (in those cases) am their hands and that is co-operation. (Well, not literally in those words but I guess you know what I mean).

Mh, still don't know what to think of it, I don't wanna be too negative.

Sometimes I just wonder: what instrument etc. would those kinds of guys play if there were no (software-)sequencers, sampling-options etc. etc.

(I do use Cubase nowadays also, but also with bands wrote songs together and step by step record together in an analog studio etc.)

Any of you ever experienced things like I mentioned above or have same sort of thoughts ?

I agree with Chicks in that good music is good no matter what the genre. Its simply undeniable. At the same time, I don't think enough can be said about the importance of musicianship. The frustrating thing for me is how some people claim to be so musically inclined but never put in the hours of practice to learn an instrument, music theory, composition, etc. In some respects, technology has taken over and actual musical skill has fallen by the wayside. But there are entire genres of music that thrive on the use of this technology. I don't think there's anything wrong with sampling, as long as you still get creative with it. There are ways to sample other compositions and use those sounds to create entirely new pieces. Look at Kanye West for instance. This guy pretty much uses samples in everything he does. But he also adds his own flavor to the mix. You can look at it like that old car that's been sitting in the garage for the past 40 years. Its still a classic. But once you fix it up, give it a little paint job, and rebuild that engine, its like you breathe new live into it.

BTW, Piaknowguy... Your setup and compositions get a big Thumbs UP!!

Haven't read the responses ...

But the reason I do it THE HARD WAY is so I can do it for real LIVE ...

However, if one can express themself through the use of loops, I have no problem with that either ...

THE MAIN THING REGARDLESS OF STYLE, often, IS HAVING SOMETHING TO SAY ... which is a big part of the problem with most music out there ... it often says NOTHING to ANYONE ... seemingly, even to the "creator."

Pity the poor person who has made all the multisamples we use and edit and claim as our own.

All you players have given me things to think about. I have no issues with looping. My sequences are nothing more then that, but it is a "long loop" I created, not sampled or off someones CD's. I never said Rap, Techno, Punk, and so on is not music. Dead2006 gave me a few things to think about in that line. I personally think creating a three chord song is basically boring, none the less unless you do something with it. AC/DC is a great band at creating something interesting with every song even if it revolves around 3-4 chords.

Beantown brings up a lot of good points as well. I remember for years locking myself in a room and playing anywhere from 2-8 hours. Along with that came studying music theory and playing scales and so forth. I take a lot of pride in that.

CJ brings up a very good point as well. I never thought about the thought of "being a musician" without really playing an instrument. A singer is a musican and can bring a lot to the table as in what they like or don't and as you say can hum what they think is a great idea for me to translate. Hell, that is how I work with drummers Blap, blap, ditti blap blap is how I talk to them about a drum pattern, hehe.

I'm just thinking MC Hammer and Vanilla Ice might not have had a few hits minus the sampling is why all this started. I just don't think it takes a genius to sample a cool riff from a master, twist it and add a few things, to be their own thing. Perhaps I am wrong. But I must have to question without samples for those guys to use, would they have been (if only for a minute) what they were to rake in a few million? I know Kidd Rock samples as well, but has plenty of hits relying on the background musicians. I would not be surprised if someone samples some of his stuff to make a hit.

Last thought that Chicks brought up. The real musicans, the good ones will sound great no matter what genre they play. I will have to second that. I'll admit I have a hip hop card on my JV-80. I would never publish anything using it, but have certainly created some cool stuff that I think could be commercial material using the samples on that card. I just could never pride myself to do that, much less I can't sing or rap to save my life. I did have some friends over that heard me playing odds and ends from that card and thought I was the bomb. The next M&M they called me. I did not want to break their hearts by telling them it was mostly coming from holding a single key down I just have a hard time calling that music when I don't do anything to produce it or at least very little effort, but it sounds good...Thanks for the killer thoughts all!

Hahaha... You guys limit yourselves to think that the only way to making music is by making it on your boards yourselves... well that works if that song asks for that but other songs need to be different so not to be so boring, or too clean.... I, thankfully, have been blessed to be able to do both... I have naturally the ability to compose, play instuments, but I also have learned the art of sampling... It's a different beast from normal composing, but it is an art and not just anybody can do it... They can stack all they want but if it don't make sense then it don't matter...

Here's a visual of what well thought out sampling can do.. this guy did this by sampling video clips he got from youtube musicians and other odd sounds, but the results are the same video or just audio...

enjoy... I know you will....

http://thru-you.com/#/videos/3/

People usually knock something they can't do themselves... Or have their own obstructed idea of what it is, as if they knew or had a clue... Not everyone, including real musicians, can do this...

Oh. and no matter how many people this guy sampled, this is his very own unique production.... He found everything to match the key chopped it up and timed it perfectly... All the videos did was provide sound...

you gotta love it.. it's genius...

You say different, you lie, and you just hatin...

Now a days anything can be an instrument as long as it can vibrate sound and if you have the ability to find it and manipulate it....

...end of story

Sweet link- that is simply awesome.

This is a interesting topic. Personally I don't care how the music is created as long as the creator is getting out their idea through music. I think it is too hard to sample so I only do it sparingly, to me its easier to use the time while I would be "chopping up a sample" to construct an original piece.
FYI to those who don't know, it is not generally considered a good idea if you just loop a sample, its better if you chop it and create something totally original. If you can tell a composition is sampled from a specific song the beat-maker didn't do their job.
When looped sampled beats are heard I think it is more of the labels asking for that because everyone wants their composition to be original.
This has been on my mind for a couple years. Am I not a "musician" if I compose songs in sections? I string together patterns to create a song in the FX, but no pattern gets used more than twice so... what's up?
Also, how do you define music genres? If a person samples a rock song, is it now hip-hop because it uses a sample, why isn't it still rock?